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you need to understand I have to hear

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one more time that you did this for the

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family I did it for me I liked it I was

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good at it I was alive

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that's Walt from Breaking Bad finally

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coming to grips with the fact that his

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descent into evil maybe wasn't for the

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altruistic reasons he had told himself

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it's a topic we talked quite a bit about

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with today's guest the oh so excellent

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Chris Knowles to me that speaks so much

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to these super Patriot spooks and spies

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who want to tell us that they're doing

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it all for us or for their country or

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for some other reason it's interesting

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you brought this up because this is

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something I've been thinking quite a bit

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about and and I think that you know the

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the descent into evil into evil thinking

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it goes in steps you know it's it's sort

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of a like an initiatory process so to

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speak but you're dealing with powers

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that are much greater than yourself and

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it's it's really delusional to think

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that you have anything to bargain for if

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you could summon a creature that's

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that's powerful enough to change your

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life or to curse somebody or whatever

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you think you want what do you have to

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offer them welcome to skeptic aware we

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explore controversial science and

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spirituality with leading researchers

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stickers and their critics today we're

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joined by Chris Noel's there's no one

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quite like Chris through his super

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popular and influential blog the secret

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Sun in his book our gods wear spandex a

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book which I think a lot of people would

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tell you has really forever changed the

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conversation about our occulted pop

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culture well through all that chris has

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really gained reputation as our

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anchorman for the esoteric

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I know when I first talked to Chris a

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few years ago as genuinely both excited

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and a little intimidated to talk to him

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and that doesn't happen very often for

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me but fortunately he's a super nice and

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approachable guy he just happens to be

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from Massachusetts which doesn't really

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fit all that but it does so here he is

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Chris welcome back thanks for joining me

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I'm so glad to be here

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you really AM well you have a new book

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and a work of fiction he will live up in

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the sky and it certainly hits all the

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skeptical buttons unacknowledged science

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could never be a conspiracy conspiracies

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and the malevolent forces of the world

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beyond our world so let's jump into the

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tell people about this book well it's a

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book that's been five years in the

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making it's a book that I started quite

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a while ago and there were a number of

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things that kind of prevented me from

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getting it done but the the lag was

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really helpful for me because it gave me

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a chance to really develop the ideas and

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change it quite a bit it started out

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being a much different book than it is

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but I wanted to explore a lot of the

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ideas that I've been writing about on

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the blog with a little bit more free

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rein you know when you're writing on a

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blog and you're sort of trying to keep

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it towards things that you can document

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things that you can prove you've got to

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be a little bit more I mean I get pretty

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pretty wild on the blog but a lot of

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it's done in humor but you know when

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you're sort of approaching these topics

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there's a certain amount of

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circumspection that you need to cleave

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to and what I wanted to do is I really

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wanted to explore these ideas without

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having to hold back without having to

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censor myself or edit myself yeah like

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you censor yourself so much and really

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sort of get down to it but I really

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wanted to explore I mean I grew up in a

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very strange place the corruption and

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the conspiracy was very close to the

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surface and it was something that we

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kind of almost took for granted I mean

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I'll just give you you know just one

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bullet point my my hometown is now the

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location of the Archdiocese of Boston

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which you might have heard

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a thing or two about in the past 20

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years in their activities and their

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cover-ups and so on and in fact the

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local parish church the priest was the

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brother of one of the principal players

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in that whole scandal and there were

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also all sorts of strange things that

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kind of gave me the feeling that there

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was some little deeper shenanigans afoot

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you know just something that the blog

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readers will be familiar with I'd gone

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to school with the woman who had carried

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out the massacre at the University of

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Alabama Huntsville in the biology

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department and a lot of the people she

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had shot were microbiologists and of

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course Huntsville is next to Redstone

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Arsenal annexed to the Marshall Space

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Center where all the paper yeah and and

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strangely enough I mean one thing I loot

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you in the book is that you know this

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area where I was in is where actually

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paperclip went down where all my

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paperclip people were flown into and

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there was an island off the coast of

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borrow of Quincy called Wollaston you

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know when my family was living and then

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with my father later moved when my

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parents split up and right off the coast

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of that is a Long Island and it was fort

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strong and that's where all the

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Peenemunde ER guys were flown into and

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it that's something that I hadn't

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learned until fairly recently and I had

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actually done some digging into my you

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know my area and things like that and

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just was stunned by just how close the

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deep state shenanigans and the

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corruption was what about the shutter

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island thing with that yeah well that's

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what this this location that I referring

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to where von daniken and his people from

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Peenemunde uh were flown into was

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actually the location with I think maybe

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just the exteriors but maybe not for the

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film the Leonardo DiCaprio film shutter

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island' which of course is very immersed

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in and kl2 allure and Paperclip and all

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that kind of stuff so it was actually a

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very appropriate setting and actually

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another Leonardo DiCaprio movie The

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Departed

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a lot of the scenes were filmed in the

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same town and it sort of gives you a

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sense of you know

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what was going on in this area if you're

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not familiar with with eastern

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Massachusetts Boston in the 70s and 80s

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it was basically run by two brothers one

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of which was a the president of the

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Senate his name was William Bulger and

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he was a very powerful figure and his

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brother was Whitey Bulger and the you

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know they've been some movies made about

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him there's a Johnny Depp movie made

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about him but he was actually I mean

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this is really stunning to think about

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he was actually a hardcore MKULTRA test

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subject did not know that yeah I mean he

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ran the Irish mob but then he also had

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all these CIA connections and they later

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find out you know he was protected all

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along but I didn't know about the N kill

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true thing when he was imprisoned in San

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Francisco it was I don't know for this

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Alcatraz and he was basically locked in

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a Cell for like a month and just given

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mega doses of LSD and then he was sent

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home sent back to Boston South Boston

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and became you know a major mob figure

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and you know if you ask a lot of people

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who were in the area at the time and

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were in the know they would tell you

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that basically Boston was run by these

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two brothers that aboveboard business

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was done by Billy and the underworld

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business was done by whitey so this is

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something was very cautious to note and

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I'll tell you something where I used to

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play basketball with my friends a park

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two blocks away from my house was right

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across the street from where one of

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Whitey's hits were carried out and they

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had dumped the body in the in the

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dumpster and you know we were playing

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basketball when all that was going down

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and I didn't realize and some many years

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later what was really going on is that

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they were fishing out a body from a

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dumpster that did why'd he build your

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head no basically placed there right

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across the street when we play

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basketball so I mean this is the kind of

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thing where you know he's really

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cognizant of I mean there was an open

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pedophile operating in my junior high

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school I mean everybody knew about it

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everybody knew who is stable boys was he

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had been doing it since the late 50s he

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wasn't arrested until 1980 he was

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arrested off the coast of Florida on a

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52 foot

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you know this is a junior high school

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science teacher in the 1970s I don't

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think you know a lot of those guys could

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afford 52:40 aughts if you get my

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meaning and of course I mean there was

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just all sorts of I couldn't believe it

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when I was looking into it I was like

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you know this was my the air that I

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breathe so I kind of wanted to explore

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some of these ideas and some of these

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events in a fictional setting but I also

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wanted to write a book that was like

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super entertaining you know a thrill

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ride a lot of people you know I'm really

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gratified because a lot of people who

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commented on it we reviewed it said that

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you know it is a thrill ride in a cage

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turn and that's really what I wanted to

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to create because you can go over this

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material and it kind of gets to be

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medicinal but I wanted to do someone in

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a context in a setting that is very

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exciting thrilling tell us very briefly

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high level fact versus fiction remote

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viewing and how that factors into he

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will live up in the sky well one of the

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things that influenced this book in a

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major way is that I had met Russell Targ

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who started the remote viewing program

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at SR I and I had also met EDA who had

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taken it over when I guess some of the

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the government and CIA sort of stepped

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in and and target and [\h__\h] off I think

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we're kind of you know back-burnered a

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bit but there was a real program it

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started in the early 70s at Stanford

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Research Institute and it was involved

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with unconventional intelligence

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gathering through remote viewing and

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remote viewing I guess traditionally

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would be considered astral projection

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you know there's a sort of a lot of

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people thinking that it's psychic or

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clairvoyant but I I think well it is all

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those things because anyone who listens

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this show knows you know all about the

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remote viewing thing and I've

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interviewed atmae and what a jerk I mean

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really you know there he is he's doing

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this totally extended consciousness

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stuff and he's trying to jam it back

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into this materialist perspective he's

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dissing on and hatin on Dean Radin who's

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probably done more real scientific bring

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it into the

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lab kind of work on this stuff did

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anyone else he denies even his own

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participants Joel McMahon achill who

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comes on my show again and everything

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says yeah it's all about near-death

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experience and they knew that I had a

272
00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:20,339
near-death experience they know all

273
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:22,140
these extended consciousness realms are

274
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:24,450
linked and here's EDA you were in the

275
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:26,010
program for ten years and comes on says

276
00:11:30,199 --> 00:11:28,290
no no none of that none of that I mean

277
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:30,209
the I don't know if there's a level of

278
00:11:33,889 --> 00:11:31,890
deception there which there is on all

279
00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:33,899
this stuff but there's also just this

280
00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:38,550
level of cluelessness that just is hard

281
00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:40,260
to sort through and I think we could

282
00:11:45,290 --> 00:11:43,260
have a deep conversation about Russell

283
00:11:48,410 --> 00:11:45,300
targa also who is kind of the white

284
00:11:52,009 --> 00:11:48,420
knight to how put off who is this Navy

285
00:11:54,740 --> 00:11:52,019
intelligence guy from the beginning and

286
00:11:57,740 --> 00:11:54,750
is also showing up in the Scientology

287
00:12:01,400 --> 00:11:57,750
stuff and is showing up you know now on

288
00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:01,410
stage with with the tic-tac guys and to

289
00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:03,990
the Stars Academy and Tom DeLonge and

290
00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:06,870
all that stuff so I mean the beat keeps

291
00:12:12,290 --> 00:12:09,600
going on and on but really to this is

292
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:12,300
where the angle that you are taking it

293
00:12:17,210 --> 00:12:14,310
seems to me in this book that's what I

294
00:12:21,199 --> 00:12:17,220
want to really pin down is are these

295
00:12:24,009 --> 00:12:21,209
guys good guys bad guys and are you or

296
00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:24,019
in what are you hinting at in terms of

297
00:12:31,189 --> 00:12:28,260
how we should understand how this

298
00:12:34,759 --> 00:12:31,199
remote-viewing program which is really a

299
00:12:37,630 --> 00:12:34,769
child of the MKULTRA program how it

300
00:12:39,860 --> 00:12:37,640
should fit in our overall world view

301
00:12:42,319 --> 00:12:39,870
well let me just get back to Ed May

302
00:12:43,970 --> 00:12:42,329
because I had had some conversations

303
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:43,980
with that nice private conversations and

304
00:12:50,329 --> 00:12:46,970
I had sat in a private discussion

305
00:12:54,019 --> 00:12:50,339
presentation where ed May basically went

306
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:54,029
through the data and he told a much

307
00:12:57,980 --> 00:12:55,920
different story than I think he told you

308
00:12:59,750 --> 00:12:57,990
so maybe it's a public private thing I'm

309
00:13:02,269 --> 00:12:59,760
not exactly sure I can't speak for ed

310
00:13:05,689 --> 00:13:02,279
but I'm actually surprised to hear that

311
00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:05,699
because he just parses things in a very

312
00:13:09,410 --> 00:13:07,649
kind of way that I've heard a million

313
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:09,420
times from these guys it's you know

314
00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:11,850
carefully crafted speech what would I

315
00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:13,260
when I talked to him he really got

316
00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:14,790
pissed off because I just called him on

317
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:17,310
his [\h__\h] I mean about Joe McMahon

318
00:13:20,590 --> 00:13:18,959
achill who I had on the show and Joe

319
00:13:22,750 --> 00:13:20,600
says yeah I had an Indy

320
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:22,760
here's Jill mcmoneagle secret spy number

321
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:26,810
zero zero one says I was a spy on the

322
00:13:32,140 --> 00:13:28,910
East German West German border I'm

323
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:32,150
poisoned in a restaurant in West Germany

324
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:35,600
on the border and I died on the way to

325
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:38,930
the door from poisoning I immediately

326
00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:40,610
leave my body have a near-death

327
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:42,380
experience see them driving me to the

328
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:44,810
hospital all this when I wake up the

329
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:47,600
guys that are there to debrief me say

330
00:13:52,570 --> 00:13:49,730
where are what what's going on he says I

331
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,580
just had an NDE few years later he shows

332
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:54,560
up at Stanford Research Institute and

333
00:13:59,830 --> 00:13:57,770
his you know sealed super secret file

334
00:14:03,010 --> 00:13:59,840
opens up and they pull out Raymond

335
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:03,020
bootys book about near-death experience

336
00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:06,320
and they say essentially this is why

337
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:08,180
you're here because we understand

338
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:09,290
there's a connection

339
00:14:14,620 --> 00:14:12,650
edie may completely denies that he says

340
00:14:16,350 --> 00:14:14,630
I know Joe McDonald there's no

341
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:16,360
connection in our program between

342
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:19,850
near-death experience and remote viewing

343
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:22,010
I don't think he's shading that I don't

344
00:14:26,890 --> 00:14:23,570
think he's making it up I think he's

345
00:14:29,410 --> 00:14:26,900
just I don't know I mean it that's like

346
00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:29,420
one of the deeper dive questions that I

347
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:31,790
have for you is how do we resolve these

348
00:14:37,090 --> 00:14:33,770
differences the differences between EDA

349
00:14:38,650 --> 00:14:37,100
Russell Targ helped put off because it's

350
00:14:40,540 --> 00:14:38,660
one thing to say oh it's all woven

351
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:40,550
together into this grand conspiracy but

352
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:42,110
I don't think it is I think it's just a

353
00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:43,400
bunch of different people who are

354
00:14:47,860 --> 00:14:45,620
looking at the elephant from different

355
00:14:49,780 --> 00:14:47,870
angles no I think that's exactly right

356
00:14:51,570 --> 00:14:49,790
but you also have to consider that these

357
00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:51,580
are guys who were involved in

358
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:54,020
intelligence work for most of their

359
00:14:58,420 --> 00:14:56,000
careers and had to sign all sorts of

360
00:15:02,050 --> 00:14:58,430
oats and and you know non-disclosure

361
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:02,060
agreements they aren't necessarily free

362
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:05,120
to discuss a lot of the details and the

363
00:15:09,130 --> 00:15:06,800
ins and outs of what they were involved

364
00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:09,140
with like I said I mean ed mace told you

365
00:15:14,410 --> 00:15:11,150
a much different story than I had heard

366
00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:14,420
him say in private so I can't really

367
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:16,190
speak for ED and I don't know exactly

368
00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:19,250
what he's getting at but I mean I was

369
00:15:25,630 --> 00:15:22,460
gonna tell you I was a remote viewing

370
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:25,640
skeptic I really was until I met you

371
00:15:30,010 --> 00:15:27,290
know people like Russell Targ and and

372
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:30,020
Dean Radin and Ed May and had a chance

373
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:33,860
to talk to them privately and listen to

374
00:15:36,190 --> 00:15:34,370
these press

375
00:15:38,079 --> 00:15:36,200
Asians that they gave privately so I

376
00:15:40,030 --> 00:15:38,089
think that you know it's very hard to

377
00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:40,040
say people are very guarded about this

378
00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:41,800
material I mean we're talking about

379
00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:44,330
intelligence gathering for a number of

380
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:46,790
years I mean you know you allude to the

381
00:15:50,950 --> 00:15:49,730
Scientology issue I it was pretty well

382
00:15:52,510 --> 00:15:50,960
known that pretty much everybody

383
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:52,520
involved in that the remote viewing

384
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:55,040
program was a Scientologist I don't know

385
00:16:00,370 --> 00:15:57,680
if there was somebody evangelizing

386
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:00,380
Scientology to them but you know that's

387
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:02,330
pretty well known and later on when it

388
00:16:06,430 --> 00:16:04,730
sort of became under the auspices of the

389
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:06,440
more of the military than the

390
00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:08,810
intelligence community you had you know

391
00:16:14,350 --> 00:16:10,430
what were called the witches which were

392
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:14,360
these women who you know were said to be

393
00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:18,290
very effective remote viewers but were

394
00:16:22,510 --> 00:16:21,200
seen as almost sinister of figures by

395
00:16:24,970 --> 00:16:22,520
you know other people in the military

396
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:24,980
and it was they was seen as almost like

397
00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:27,290
seductresses and and had very much an

398
00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:29,660
unsavory reputation but they were doing

399
00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:32,600
excellent intelligence gathering so

400
00:16:35,950 --> 00:16:34,700
again it's very hard to say you have to

401
00:16:38,140 --> 00:16:35,960
take everything with a grain of salt

402
00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:38,150
that you hear and you just have to sort

403
00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:39,830
of take things and aggregate you know

404
00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:42,350
what is the gestalt of this what is this

405
00:16:46,990 --> 00:16:44,060
sort of the some impression that you get

406
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:47,000
and and proceed from there but like I

407
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:49,010
said I was very much a remote viewing

408
00:16:55,150 --> 00:16:51,470
skeptic because my experience with Rob

409
00:16:57,070 --> 00:16:55,160
Ewing was coast to coast and Ed Ames and

410
00:16:59,079 --> 00:16:57,080
you know these people and the whole

411
00:17:01,210 --> 00:16:59,089
hale-bopp thing you know you remember

412
00:17:02,769 --> 00:17:01,220
all that stuff back in the 90s I just

413
00:17:04,569 --> 00:17:02,779
thought well this is just kind of like a

414
00:17:06,819 --> 00:17:04,579
PSYOP or a hoax or just information

415
00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:06,829
thing if we could launch off into

416
00:17:10,510 --> 00:17:08,900
another topic here and I think we will

417
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:10,520
because it's a super interesting one to

418
00:17:15,340 --> 00:17:12,890
me and that's that you kind of touch on

419
00:17:16,510 --> 00:17:15,350
the role that the quote-unquote skeptics

420
00:17:18,610 --> 00:17:16,520
and I think for the most part the

421
00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:18,620
sceptical thing is over you know it's

422
00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:21,230
the James Randi thing is over and with

423
00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:23,270
it you know went the whole thing James

424
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:25,730
Randi such an interesting character I

425
00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:27,650
don't know if you knew this but yeah

426
00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:31,040
James Randi who was famous for making

427
00:17:34,510 --> 00:17:32,750
all these just outrageous claims about

428
00:17:38,049 --> 00:17:34,520
himself you know highest IQ ever

429
00:17:40,410 --> 00:17:38,059
recorded and you know had a special pass

430
00:17:42,730 --> 00:17:40,420
to the library all this uh just

431
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:42,740
ridiculous stuff but the other thing

432
00:17:46,419 --> 00:17:45,170
tying back to and I forget where he was

433
00:17:49,789 --> 00:17:46,429
but oh somewhere in New England

434
00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:49,799
he claims he

435
00:17:54,919 --> 00:17:52,200
a gay man which he reveals much later in

436
00:17:58,820 --> 00:17:54,929
his life but early on he was involved

437
00:18:01,759 --> 00:17:58,830
with these prank sexual phone calls with

438
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:01,769
these teenagers and this came out in a

439
00:18:10,220 --> 00:18:06,570
court document and he claimed that the

440
00:18:14,239 --> 00:18:10,230
police department had asked him to try

441
00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:14,249
and ensnare these kids kids to get him

442
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:17,340
to do sex talk on the phone this to me

443
00:18:21,739 --> 00:18:19,860
sounds like and and I know you from your

444
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:21,749
experience this has been a compromised

445
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:23,730
individual so however we're supposed to

446
00:18:28,399 --> 00:18:25,080
understand we understand that he is

447
00:18:29,989 --> 00:18:28,409
somehow an agent a compromised thing but

448
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:29,999
then you take the skeptical thing as it

449
00:18:33,129 --> 00:18:31,440
relates to remote viewing a lot

450
00:18:35,659 --> 00:18:33,139
different but of the thing the way that

451
00:18:38,779 --> 00:18:35,669
I'm trying to tie this back to the

452
00:18:41,149 --> 00:18:38,789
Stanford Research Institute if you go

453
00:18:44,210 --> 00:18:41,159
back and we did it on this show the SRO

454
00:18:46,879 --> 00:18:44,220
I put out a video with Uri Geller and

455
00:18:48,769 --> 00:18:46,889
the test that they had done in their lab

456
00:18:51,649 --> 00:18:48,779
of the psychic abilities of Uri Geller

457
00:18:54,049 --> 00:18:51,659
and I also had Jacque filet on this show

458
00:18:56,899 --> 00:18:54,059
confirming that Jacque Lee is not a

459
00:18:59,419 --> 00:18:56,909
dummy you know super successful venture

460
00:19:03,289 --> 00:18:59,429
capitalist and just genius computer

461
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:03,299
scientist physicists kind of guy he said

462
00:19:09,169 --> 00:19:06,240
yeah he didn't there was no full RIA I

463
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:09,179
he demonstrated a real ability and he

464
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:10,710
says on the show how he did it

465
00:19:15,649 --> 00:19:12,690
but also in these videos that Stanford

466
00:19:17,629 --> 00:19:15,659
Research Institute published and there

467
00:19:20,539 --> 00:19:17,639
are no dummies I mean Russell Targ and

468
00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:20,549
he'll put up our top-notch scientists I

469
00:19:25,369 --> 00:19:23,190
mean like laser physics scientists at a

470
00:19:26,690 --> 00:19:25,379
degree that I don't understand but I

471
00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:26,700
understand enough to know they're really

472
00:19:31,639 --> 00:19:29,100
competent these tests are not hard to do

473
00:19:35,419 --> 00:19:31,649
in terms of testing that uri geller had

474
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:35,429
these ESP abilities as he claimed and

475
00:19:38,779 --> 00:19:37,110
was able to draw things that were hidden

476
00:19:40,129 --> 00:19:38,789
and these other things those are out

477
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:40,139
there those are published you can still

478
00:19:45,499 --> 00:19:42,690
find him on the website I'm surprised

479
00:19:48,139 --> 00:19:45,509
that you were quote-unquote skeptical of

480
00:19:50,389 --> 00:19:48,149
the remote viewing thing I thought since

481
00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:50,399
the 70s they had pretty much proven it

482
00:19:55,759 --> 00:19:52,769
and the skeptical thing to me was always

483
00:19:57,919 --> 00:19:55,769
as you explore in this book kind of the

484
00:20:00,110 --> 00:19:57,929
I don't know what kind of operation that

485
00:20:02,570 --> 00:20:00,120
is but it was a

486
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:02,580
kind of SIOP to kind of smear something

487
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:06,240
that you know but I'll say one more

488
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:08,490
thing I'll shut out because I hear you

489
00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:11,820
but in the in the 70s or in the 80s you

490
00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:15,480
had Ted Koppel who was our source for

491
00:20:21,260 --> 00:20:18,150
nightly you know late time news doing a

492
00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:21,270
full expose on remote viewing right and

493
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,160
saying there's Stargate were spying

494
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:25,200
against the Russians this is real and he

495
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:27,810
has total credibility to it and then for

496
00:20:32,150 --> 00:20:29,490
some reason they did a switch on that

497
00:20:34,130 --> 00:20:32,160
and then it became James Randi oh this

498
00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:34,140
is probably all just fake you're a

499
00:20:38,330 --> 00:20:36,600
Yeller fakes his stuff on TV and all

500
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:38,340
that so I don't know who changed the

501
00:20:43,910 --> 00:20:40,410
narrative on that but that's the part I

502
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:43,920
can't really understand about it well if

503
00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:45,600
you look at who was involved and say

504
00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:47,670
sigh cop in the early days I mean they

505
00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:50,460
had all kinds of connections to the CIA

506
00:20:57,380 --> 00:20:55,350
to military intelligence to MKULTRA I

507
00:20:59,240 --> 00:20:57,390
mean up and down the line and if you

508
00:21:02,330 --> 00:20:59,250
really dig into the histories of these

509
00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:02,340
people you have a pretty unsavory kind

510
00:21:07,730 --> 00:21:05,580
of group and approach who you know I'm

511
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:07,740
not exactly sure is an entirely credible

512
00:21:13,850 --> 00:21:10,770
source but he had said that when he was

513
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:13,860
basically working for the DoD that he

514
00:21:17,330 --> 00:21:16,110
was basically a dissemination agents of

515
00:21:19,070 --> 00:21:17,340
the Department of Defense

516
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:19,080
I had actually heard those tapes that

517
00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:21,200
you talk about the ones that Randy had

518
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:25,110
taken part in and I you know I'm from

519
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:27,330
the I read the the court case where he

520
00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:29,760
it's shockingly lied and you know this

521
00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:31,980
whole story that he concocted about the

522
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:34,950
police department and so on where was

523
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:36,330
that where was that what city was it him

524
00:21:42,110 --> 00:21:39,690
I don't even remember but it was out it

525
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:42,120
is in Massachusetts or someplace it

526
00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:44,130
might have been I I don't recall but it

527
00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:46,140
was absurd it was ridiculous and even

528
00:21:49,790 --> 00:21:48,420
the judge is the judge like admonished

529
00:21:51,770 --> 00:21:49,800
him and just said this story is not

530
00:21:55,070 --> 00:21:51,780
credible this is just you know you're

531
00:21:57,290 --> 00:21:55,080
just talking nonsense in my courtroom so

532
00:21:59,690 --> 00:21:57,300
I yeah I think it's clear that Randy was

533
00:22:03,170 --> 00:21:59,700
compromised and Randy was sort of he was

534
00:22:05,630 --> 00:22:03,180
following the UFO he was in those kind

535
00:22:07,940 --> 00:22:05,640
of circles you know the late sort of the

536
00:22:10,670 --> 00:22:07,950
tail end of the long John Neville show

537
00:22:12,150 --> 00:22:10,680
and and that whole period you know he

538
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:12,160
was hanging around with the

539
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,580
people who are involved like Mosley

540
00:22:19,050 --> 00:22:16,720
Saucer smear I mean all these kind of

541
00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:19,060
things so he was this a very strange guy

542
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:21,880
and you know but he was also somebody

543
00:22:26,670 --> 00:22:23,530
who had sort of worshipped at the feet

544
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:26,680
of Houdini and kind of wanted to to walk

545
00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:29,410
in his footsteps and so on yeah I mean

546
00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:33,400
it's clear that that Randy was somehow

547
00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:35,470
compromised but you draw you draw all

548
00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:37,030
these links with like Bill Nye the

549
00:22:43,410 --> 00:22:40,540
Science Guy and Richard Dawkins and all

550
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:43,420
these other strange things that you tie

551
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:46,450
into yeah I didn't camera was on the

552
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:49,450
blog Oh a lot of that on the blog sure I

553
00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:52,090
mean Bill Nye is a I mean I think the

554
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:53,860
man's a fraud I mean he presents himself

555
00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:55,690
with a scientist and he has no degrees

556
00:22:59,130 --> 00:22:56,980
in science and he has a degree in

557
00:23:01,290 --> 00:22:59,140
engineering but he has all sorts of

558
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:01,300
connections to you know the military and

559
00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:05,530
that whole world and like I said if you

560
00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:06,790
start doing some digging with these

561
00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:08,500
people you find that they do but you're

562
00:23:12,540 --> 00:23:10,750
right it's over it's not even worth even

563
00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:12,550
discussing at this point because it was

564
00:23:20,970 --> 00:23:17,500
clearly just a kind of SIOP or operation

565
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:20,980
or something - or campaign to just kind

566
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:23,710
of turn things around and you know

567
00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:25,530
change the tone of the conversation

568
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:28,750
bring you back then to the 1995 Ted

569
00:23:33,540 --> 00:23:31,690
Koppel is out there saying doing the

570
00:23:35,790 --> 00:23:33,550
expose on remote viewing we don't know

571
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:35,800
whether it's a real expose like anything

572
00:23:38,790 --> 00:23:37,120
in the media but it seemed to be

573
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:38,800
somewhat real that like they didn't

574
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:40,720
necessarily want that to come out and

575
00:23:46,590 --> 00:23:43,600
it's very just kind of straight-up what

576
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:46,600
the program was then why would they then

577
00:23:50,970 --> 00:23:48,730
pull it back because you know Lance

578
00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:50,980
munguia just did a movie I don't know if

579
00:23:54,330 --> 00:23:52,480
you've seen it or talked to him about

580
00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:54,340
third eye spies where they do this kind

581
00:24:01,980 --> 00:23:57,190
of world tour with Russell Targ and he

582
00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:01,990
goes around and with the first question

583
00:24:08,670 --> 00:24:04,420
you know I never wears got separate

584
00:24:13,070 --> 00:24:08,680
Lance's you mean to tell me the CIA for

585
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:13,080
the vanity of this nice old guy released

586
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:16,650
60,000 previously classified documents I

587
00:24:22,830 --> 00:24:18,910
just don't think that's the way things

588
00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:22,840
go I think it's more likely that they're

589
00:24:27,810 --> 00:24:25,750
trying to once again chain

590
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:27,820
the store your change the narrative so

591
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:30,250
it went from Ted Koppel releasing it to

592
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:34,510
hurry Gellar and James Randi you know

593
00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:36,370
just this rise of this skeptical oh

594
00:24:42,530 --> 00:24:38,230
don't listen to any of that stuff and

595
00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:42,540
Ray Hyman you know the official CIA

596
00:24:47,940 --> 00:24:46,300
academic and now it's like oh no we can

597
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:47,950
talk about this stuff again in oh it's

598
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:49,330
all released it's all real what do you

599
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:51,730
make of that transition I think it's

600
00:24:56,780 --> 00:24:54,370
just modus operandi it's mudding the

601
00:25:01,020 --> 00:24:56,790
waters it's sowing confusion and doubt

602
00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:01,030
claim counterclaim acknowledgement

603
00:25:03,870 --> 00:25:02,350
denial

604
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:03,880
this is something that you see over and

605
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:05,170
over again we're seeing with this whole

606
00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:06,940
you know you alluded to the tick-tock

607
00:25:11,670 --> 00:25:09,220
thing I mean we're seeing the same exact

608
00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:11,680
process take place with that so I mean

609
00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:13,600
this is just the way things operate you

610
00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:16,390
know you have to really learn to sort of

611
00:25:20,580 --> 00:25:18,940
again see things in aggregate and read

612
00:25:24,270 --> 00:25:20,590
between the lines you have to sort of

613
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:24,280
see where the lies are and where the

614
00:25:27,210 --> 00:25:25,930
truth is and it can be very difficult

615
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:27,220
you know it can be very difficult to

616
00:25:33,210 --> 00:25:30,310
parse how do you handle that in in the

617
00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:33,220
book Chris he will live up in the sky it

618
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:37,360
really revolves around a related kind of

619
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:41,710
storyline of extraordinary abilities and

620
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:44,290
people involved in and around the

621
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:45,970
program and that what was it that

622
00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:48,640
interested you in that what interested

623
00:25:54,660 --> 00:25:52,660
me is that there was a big blowup

624
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:54,670
in the early 90s about the remote

625
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:57,130
viewing campaign which I guess at that

626
00:26:03,450 --> 00:26:01,200
point was under the Stargate ages and

627
00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:03,460
Congress shut it down Congress had

628
00:26:09,210 --> 00:26:07,000
defunded it but there were a lot of the

629
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:09,220
work was being privatized people you

630
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:12,220
know ed Ames who had been very deeply

631
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:14,170
involved in the in the armies program

632
00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:17,110
and a number of his people started sort

633
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:20,560
of selling their services to the highest

634
00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:23,170
bidder and and I wanted to look at the

635
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:26,350
the process where and this is an ongoing

636
00:26:33,540 --> 00:26:30,850
process that folds in more activities

637
00:26:36,390 --> 00:26:33,550
than remote viewing or whatever is just

638
00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:36,400
how things that were under the ages of

639
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:38,020
the government things that you could

640
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:39,450
access through

641
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:42,510
freedom of information and so on and so

642
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:43,710
forth we there was some sort of

643
00:26:50,539 --> 00:26:46,260
accountability with were increasingly

644
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:50,549
privatized in the 1990s where they could

645
00:26:57,169 --> 00:26:54,450
be locked away forever they could be

646
00:26:58,610 --> 00:26:57,179
made totally inaccessible as corporate

647
00:27:03,710 --> 00:26:58,620
secrets they could be made totally

648
00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:03,720
inaccessible just because it's a private

649
00:27:07,639 --> 00:27:05,700
entity that has that has no

650
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:07,649
responsibility of the Freedom of

651
00:27:15,379 --> 00:27:10,950
Information Act and I want that was sort

652
00:27:18,980 --> 00:27:15,389
of my starting point I wanted to suppose

653
00:27:20,930 --> 00:27:18,990
or posit a situation where somebody who

654
00:27:25,090 --> 00:27:20,940
had been very deeply involved in a

655
00:27:29,299 --> 00:27:25,100
government program then retired and

656
00:27:32,110 --> 00:27:29,309
created basically a cut-out funded by

657
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:32,120
the DoD to continue the work without

658
00:27:36,740 --> 00:27:34,950
accountability and sort of do so you

659
00:27:40,220 --> 00:27:36,750
know in a more bare knuckled fashion

660
00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:40,230
than I think you would see in the

661
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:43,049
official programs and again I have no

662
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:44,880
access to this information it's it's

663
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:47,010
it's conjecture on my part but we do

664
00:27:52,970 --> 00:27:50,970
have examples of when activities taking

665
00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:52,980
place within the military or

666
00:27:58,310 --> 00:27:56,580
intelligence are privatized and we just

667
00:28:00,740 --> 00:27:58,320
get little glimmers we'll see you know

668
00:28:02,149 --> 00:28:00,750
how the abuses that come out of that and

669
00:28:03,769 --> 00:28:02,159
that's something that I really wanted to

670
00:28:06,289 --> 00:28:03,779
explore and I wanted to explore the

671
00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:06,299
mentality of the people who would devote

672
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:07,710
their lives to these kind of activities

673
00:28:13,940 --> 00:28:11,010
and again it's something where I don't

674
00:28:17,930 --> 00:28:13,950
have access to the private information I

675
00:28:20,629 --> 00:28:17,940
don't have access to papers and things

676
00:28:23,779 --> 00:28:20,639
that are all locked away under corporate

677
00:28:26,690 --> 00:28:23,789
privilege I've been watching Breaking

678
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:26,700
Bad I want to play a clip for you which

679
00:28:34,399 --> 00:28:30,570
I think is the quintessential clip from

680
00:28:37,340 --> 00:28:34,409
the whole series and I think it speaks

681
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:37,350
directly to me to this question about

682
00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:40,110
the underlying psychologists let me play

683
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:41,340
this clip and then I want to get some

684
00:28:50,090 --> 00:28:45,049
thoughts from you on it this is Walt

685
00:28:52,940 --> 00:28:50,100
near the very end of his run talking to

686
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:52,950
Skyler in their kitchen so this is a way

687
00:28:55,460 --> 00:28:54,000
inside baseball if you don't know

688
00:28:58,220 --> 00:28:55,470
Breaking Bad you won't get it but if you

689
00:29:04,129 --> 00:28:58,230
do might be interesting let me play it

690
00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:04,139
for you all the things that I did you

691
00:29:12,379 --> 00:29:08,100
need to understand I have to share one

692
00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:12,389
more time that you did this for the

693
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,690
[Music]

694
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:26,730
I liked it

695
00:29:26,740 --> 00:29:30,749
I was good at it

696
00:29:43,919 --> 00:29:38,459
I was alive well to me that speaks so

697
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:43,929
much to these super Patriot spooks and

698
00:29:48,930 --> 00:29:45,849
spies who want to tell us that they're

699
00:29:52,829 --> 00:29:48,940
doing it all for us or for their country

700
00:29:56,189 --> 00:29:52,839
or for some other reason what do you

701
00:29:57,689 --> 00:29:56,199
think about that I think that a lot of

702
00:29:59,489 --> 00:29:57,699
these people can become so delusional

703
00:30:02,249 --> 00:29:59,499
that they identify their own

704
00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:02,259
personal motivations with the the good

705
00:30:06,449 --> 00:30:03,849
of the country and that's another thing

706
00:30:09,589 --> 00:30:06,459
that I explore and and try and have

707
00:30:11,729 --> 00:30:09,599
dialogues with in the story about

708
00:30:13,469 --> 00:30:11,739
different characters explaining their

709
00:30:15,569 --> 00:30:13,479
motivations and that's something I mean

710
00:30:17,819 --> 00:30:15,579
it's it's based on things that I've read

711
00:30:20,009 --> 00:30:17,829
and and things that I've seen I wanted

712
00:30:21,599 --> 00:30:20,019
to explore that like what motivates

713
00:30:23,849 --> 00:30:21,609
these people what drives them to do

714
00:30:26,669 --> 00:30:23,859
these things you know you're not going

715
00:30:28,949 --> 00:30:26,679
to get glory and very often you're not

716
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:28,959
going to get rich you you have a sort of

717
00:30:35,959 --> 00:30:32,799
fanatic mentality at work here that I

718
00:30:38,999 --> 00:30:35,969
think can be very destabilizing

719
00:30:41,129 --> 00:30:39,009
particularly as technology progresses

720
00:30:42,479 --> 00:30:41,139
and with things like remote viewing I

721
00:30:44,779 --> 00:30:42,489
think one of the reasons why there might

722
00:30:48,689 --> 00:30:44,789
be so much confusion so about it is

723
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:48,699
because if it's operant it's a pretty

724
00:30:54,059 --> 00:30:51,279
dangerous technology that you have no

725
00:30:56,309 --> 00:30:54,069
defense against you can defend against

726
00:30:58,109 --> 00:30:56,319
you know drones and you can defend

727
00:31:01,469 --> 00:30:58,119
against listening devices and you can

728
00:31:03,299 --> 00:31:01,479
defend against spies I mean how you

729
00:31:05,939 --> 00:31:03,309
gonna defend against somebody who leaves

730
00:31:08,579 --> 00:31:05,949
their body and can travel to your

731
00:31:14,759 --> 00:31:08,589
underground base that's a mile under you

732
00:31:17,549 --> 00:31:14,769
know bedrock and look around as we've

733
00:31:19,409 --> 00:31:17,559
seen reports on you know how do you do

734
00:31:21,379 --> 00:31:19,419
that you did no defense against it so I

735
00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:21,389
think that's one of the reasons why this

736
00:31:26,879 --> 00:31:24,369
topic became so sensitive you know and

737
00:31:28,649 --> 00:31:26,889
when things out you know just winding

738
00:31:31,349 --> 00:31:28,659
the clock back a bit to Randy when did

739
00:31:33,389 --> 00:31:31,359
he go after Gellar he went off to Gellar

740
00:31:35,389 --> 00:31:33,399
at a very specific point in time he went

741
00:31:38,849 --> 00:31:35,399
after Gellar after Andrew Maharaj

742
00:31:44,039 --> 00:31:38,859
published his early book which is

743
00:31:44,970 --> 00:31:44,049
basically a very weird religious text

744
00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:44,980
about

745
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:47,350
the nine you know the Council of nine

746
00:31:58,650 --> 00:31:55,170
and how hard had credited Geller's

747
00:32:01,920 --> 00:31:58,660
powers or you know beliefs or abilities

748
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:01,930
will have you choose to to coach it but

749
00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:04,000
he we would have to back up and maybe

750
00:32:08,730 --> 00:32:07,270
you can do a quick sketch of Padraic who

751
00:32:10,260 --> 00:32:08,740
we talked about a lot on this show and

752
00:32:12,330 --> 00:32:10,270
have interviewed the guy who's doing the

753
00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:12,340
biography on him and has the permission

754
00:32:19,010 --> 00:32:15,280
and help of his son but you know he said

755
00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:19,020
he's at PhD at Northwestern University

756
00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:22,030
which was an MKULTRA hub and you could

757
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:24,190
just imagine these super smart guys get

758
00:32:28,410 --> 00:32:26,620
these super important academic positions

759
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:28,420
at least they think and then someone

760
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:29,890
pulls the rug out from them and says hey

761
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:31,840
by the way

762
00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:33,760
you're working for Sidney Gottlieb and

763
00:32:39,780 --> 00:32:36,880
the reboot up the Nazi program of

764
00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:39,790
mind-control and it's all under this and

765
00:32:44,010 --> 00:32:42,820
then he does the whole entheogens thing

766
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:44,020
the fake you know we're going to

767
00:32:47,310 --> 00:32:45,250
discover that but it's real I mean

768
00:32:49,410 --> 00:32:47,320
there's and then the ninth thing is

769
00:32:51,420 --> 00:32:49,420
totally out there but are you suggesting

770
00:32:53,940 --> 00:32:51,430
that that was there was like this

771
00:32:55,860 --> 00:32:53,950
counter disinformation at the same time

772
00:32:59,760 --> 00:32:55,870
because Padraic is clearly working for

773
00:33:02,310 --> 00:32:59,770
the left hand path CIA folks are you

774
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:02,320
suggesting that different factions I

775
00:33:07,260 --> 00:33:04,000
mean what are we talking about here I

776
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:07,270
think I think basically spilled the

777
00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:12,640
beans and exposed a strain of thinking

778
00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:16,900
within his milieu that they did not want

779
00:33:24,150 --> 00:33:20,260
to get out I I think that he well first

780
00:33:26,190 --> 00:33:24,160
of all he so clearly become as they say

781
00:33:29,490 --> 00:33:26,200
high on his own supply I mean I think

782
00:33:33,330 --> 00:33:29,500
the man had be damaged his brain through

783
00:33:35,310 --> 00:33:33,340
excessive ingestion of mushrooms and so

784
00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:35,320
on but he had been on the mushroom thing

785
00:33:41,370 --> 00:33:39,550
since the late 50s and you know he his

786
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:41,380
involvement with a nine he claims that

787
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:44,890
it dates back to 1952 at these

788
00:33:52,830 --> 00:33:47,920
experiments in a house in Glen Cove

789
00:33:55,770 --> 00:33:52,840
Maine which is a very remote location up

790
00:33:57,390 --> 00:33:55,780
the coast so I think that they didn't

791
00:33:58,799 --> 00:33:57,400
want that information getting out and

792
00:34:01,560 --> 00:33:58,809
they didn't I don't think that the

793
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:01,570
and sort of a religion a quasi religion

794
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:04,450
to revolve around Geller which was kind

795
00:34:10,260 --> 00:34:07,210
of happening I mean he is a very

796
00:34:13,020 --> 00:34:10,270
charismatic man very intelligent very

797
00:34:19,139 --> 00:34:13,030
well-spoken and I think there was a fear

798
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:19,149
that his charisma would lead to a cult

799
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:21,010
and they did not want that and they also

800
00:34:27,089 --> 00:34:24,210
did not want Raj talking about the nine

801
00:34:28,829 --> 00:34:27,099
the fact and again we're way past this

802
00:34:30,329 --> 00:34:28,839
is total inside baseball here folks I

803
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:30,339
apologize but if it's ending you pick

804
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:31,569
out of this then you're deep in the

805
00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:33,490
rabbit hole with Krishna what about

806
00:34:38,970 --> 00:34:36,040
Padraic connection to the Mossad right

807
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:38,980
because he goes and gets Yeller from the

808
00:34:44,339 --> 00:34:41,200
Mossad so Geller is in Israel and we

809
00:34:46,589 --> 00:34:44,349
later find he's always been connected to

810
00:34:49,649 --> 00:34:46,599
Israeli intelligence and he brings hello

811
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:49,659
as an agent yellow was a Mossad agent

812
00:34:56,099 --> 00:34:54,010
and was it CIA handler so correct but he

813
00:34:58,290 --> 00:34:56,109
and so correct me if I'm wrong filming

814
00:35:02,880 --> 00:34:58,300
any of the gaps but at this point but

815
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:02,890
our padai rich is also connected to s RI

816
00:35:07,050 --> 00:35:05,050
he knows that this program is going on

817
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:07,060
and they say hey you know we got this

818
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:09,730
Ingo Swann guy find us other you know

819
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:11,770
because oh you know here's another guy

820
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:13,510
over here let's bring him into the mix

821
00:35:18,329 --> 00:35:15,310
so at this point I kind of see it as

822
00:35:19,740 --> 00:35:18,339
this it's not like a super they don't

823
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:19,750
know how about all the cards are gonna

824
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:21,250
fall so they're just kind of trying to

825
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:23,440
pull in all these resources and then it

826
00:35:27,329 --> 00:35:25,510
just gets stranger and stranger I mean

827
00:35:30,030 --> 00:35:27,339
what can you add to that or correct on

828
00:35:32,990 --> 00:35:30,040
that I I think I think you're right but

829
00:35:35,819 --> 00:35:33,000
I think a lot they were just running

830
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:35,829
with the ball and I don't think they had

831
00:35:41,069 --> 00:35:38,400
a tremendous amount of oversight and

832
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:41,079
they were producing some actual

833
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:45,130
intelligence which gave them you know

834
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:48,010
the ability to sort of act on their own

835
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:51,520
did if you've read the the work of Jon

836
00:35:55,319 --> 00:35:53,680
Ronson or seen that the movie the men

837
00:35:57,059 --> 00:35:55,329
who stare at goats he sort of kind of

838
00:35:59,460 --> 00:35:57,069
goes into this with the what was it

839
00:36:01,770 --> 00:35:59,470
called the new earth army yes that you

840
00:36:06,030 --> 00:36:01,780
know that program that was or the first

841
00:36:07,859 --> 00:36:06,040
earth army so directly direct links to

842
00:36:10,140 --> 00:36:07,869
the Nazi program right this is exactly

843
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:10,150
what the Nazis documented that they were

844
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:12,130
doing with their super soldier

845
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:14,890
not seein and everyone kind of freaks

846
00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:16,480
out but no I mean it's all documented

847
00:36:19,730 --> 00:36:18,430
they were doing the Super Soldier thing

848
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:19,740
so it's a but go ahead

849
00:36:24,750 --> 00:36:22,510
well a lot of it was was you know this

850
00:36:26,610 --> 00:36:24,760
whole idea of the Jedi and psychic

851
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:26,620
powers of soldiers creating you know

852
00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:29,440
more effective peaceable warriors they

853
00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:31,660
said so I think there were a lot of

854
00:36:36,030 --> 00:36:34,300
things going on and with Geller's

855
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:36,040
popularity Mandela was a nightclub

856
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:38,560
performer and as charisma they did not

857
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:42,040
want this bleeding out they did not want

858
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:45,010
the ball unraveling I don't remember

859
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:48,460
exactly when the remote viewing program

860
00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:51,310
became public but it hadn't really

861
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:54,190
become widespread known until the the

862
00:36:58,740 --> 00:36:56,530
90s with the whole controversy about

863
00:37:01,530 --> 00:36:58,750
Stargate and the Congress shutting the

864
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:01,540
programs down and you know the religious

865
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:03,130
right were involved in this and it's

866
00:37:06,990 --> 00:37:05,410
very interesting to see how often the

867
00:37:09,450 --> 00:37:07,000
religious right and the skeptical

868
00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:09,460
community joined forces or work in

869
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:12,070
tandem so but when you talk to the

870
00:37:16,350 --> 00:37:14,320
insiders on the remote viewing program

871
00:37:18,450 --> 00:37:16,360
which is another angle you know we had a

872
00:37:20,090 --> 00:37:18,460
conversation it maybe it's a couple

873
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,100
years ago at this point which was just

874
00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:22,000
extraordinary and you open my eyes

875
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:23,470
there's so many things but one of the

876
00:37:26,340 --> 00:37:24,610
things we talked about was this kind of

877
00:37:27,150 --> 00:37:26,350
bracketed reality where these things

878
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:27,160
make sense

879
00:37:31,710 --> 00:37:29,920
they're internally coherent at different

880
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:31,720
levels but when you step back that's

881
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:33,970
just complete craziness the Catholic

882
00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:35,530
Church is like the example we talked

883
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:37,870
about before well I think this is kind

884
00:37:43,770 --> 00:37:40,510
of an example as well the political

885
00:37:46,110 --> 00:37:43,780
forces at play in the remote viewing

886
00:37:48,270 --> 00:37:46,120
program from everyone you talk to inside

887
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:48,280
that program was very real you had very

888
00:37:54,540 --> 00:37:50,910
real Christian believing

889
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:54,550
Senators Congressmen oversight viewers

890
00:38:00,420 --> 00:37:57,010
as well as insiders who just had a

891
00:38:01,830 --> 00:38:00,430
Christian belief that this stuff was

892
00:38:03,570 --> 00:38:01,840
wrong and they didn't what they weren't

893
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:03,580
interested in exploring it in any kind

894
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:05,290
of esoteric occult it kind of way it's

895
00:38:09,570 --> 00:38:07,210
just like it's against the Bible at

896
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:09,580
Satan it's all wrong and that they had a

897
00:38:13,890 --> 00:38:12,640
real force in kind of submarining this

898
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:13,900
program and then you had a whole other

899
00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:15,910
group of people that were like Jesus

900
00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:17,740
Christ if we run our government based on

901
00:38:22,860 --> 00:38:20,350
these wacky Christians and their crazy

902
00:38:24,810 --> 00:38:22,870
Dogma we'll never get anything done so

903
00:38:25,740 --> 00:38:24,820
they have this kind of continuity of

904
00:38:27,150 --> 00:38:25,750
government thing in the

905
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:27,160
saying you know just don't tell them

906
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:28,450
don't tell them like we don't tell the

907
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:30,250
UFO program we don't tell them all the

908
00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:31,510
rest is stopped this is just another

909
00:38:35,550 --> 00:38:33,160
thing we'll just go underground and

910
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:35,560
actually the ultimate insider kick green

911
00:38:38,340 --> 00:38:36,910
that's what he says has happened the

912
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:38,350
remote viewing program which you alluded

913
00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:41,050
to too it's like yeah it's just had to

914
00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:43,150
take it off the table kind of thing so

915
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:45,160
there's a lot to unpack there but I

916
00:38:50,370 --> 00:38:47,920
don't know that I agree that these

917
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:50,380
groups are necessarily in cahoots I mean

918
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:51,610
I think a lot of the Christians that

919
00:38:58,950 --> 00:38:54,880
were opposing the remote viewing program

920
00:39:00,360 --> 00:38:58,960
were just straight on well they're

921
00:39:02,270 --> 00:39:00,370
working in tandem and there's no there's

922
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:02,280
no question about that and there are

923
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:04,930
documents and and news stories that you

924
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:06,760
can look up where they were working

925
00:39:12,540 --> 00:39:08,800
hand-in-hand against which they thought

926
00:39:14,070 --> 00:39:12,550
which they saw as a mutual threat so I

927
00:39:16,110 --> 00:39:14,080
mean there is a history on that that's

928
00:39:19,740 --> 00:39:16,120
that's fairly well known what is the

929
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:19,750
history on that as you know it so you

930
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:21,310
would alluded to the the Christian

931
00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:24,640
conservatives that were railing against

932
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:25,990
the program you know particularly in

933
00:39:30,930 --> 00:39:28,930
Congress but also in the Pentagon but at

934
00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:30,940
the same time you had people from side

935
00:39:38,330 --> 00:39:35,350
cop doing audits of the program behind

936
00:39:40,890 --> 00:39:38,340
mark in those folks yeah and and

937
00:39:42,270 --> 00:39:40,900
basically saying you know this was this

938
00:39:44,850 --> 00:39:42,280
is a waste of money and this was

939
00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:44,860
nonsense and so on and so forth

940
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:46,390
but do you think they were knowingly

941
00:39:50,370 --> 00:39:48,160
working together or that someone was

942
00:39:52,350 --> 00:39:50,380
kind of managing that at a higher level

943
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:52,360
and saying oh these are all working both

944
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:53,890
these forces are working towards our

945
00:39:58,890 --> 00:39:57,130
interest of dear ailing this thing well

946
00:40:00,570 --> 00:39:58,900
there was kind of it they talked between

947
00:40:03,390 --> 00:40:00,580
the two groups you know Stephen Jay

948
00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:03,400
Gould who was one of the major movers

949
00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:05,230
and shakers in the skeptical movement in

950
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:06,820
the 70s and 80s you know it basically

951
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:08,710
said that religion and science were

952
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:11,290
non-overlapping magisteria and they both

953
00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:14,070
sort of had a common interest in

954
00:40:18,990 --> 00:40:16,870
fighting what they saw as a rationality

955
00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:19,000
new new ageism you know which had been

956
00:40:23,850 --> 00:40:21,880
very popular and you know it's very

957
00:40:25,980 --> 00:40:23,860
intelligent circles particularly in the

958
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:25,990
California the Bay Area you know it's

959
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:29,470
fascinating to see how you follow G and

960
00:40:34,830 --> 00:40:33,370
remote viewing and high technology the

961
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:34,840
internet and all these kind of things

962
00:40:39,210 --> 00:40:36,970
grew out of the same kettle you know

963
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:39,220
they all sort of grew from the same

964
00:40:42,070 --> 00:40:39,920
exact

965
00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:42,080
or the same plot so I think there was a

966
00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:43,550
tremendous amount of concern about that

967
00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:46,910
that who is driving this material who is

968
00:40:51,580 --> 00:40:49,700
going to be at the helm is it going to

969
00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:51,590
be you know these kind of wackos like

970
00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:54,470
hood off and and Targ and jock fillet

971
00:40:58,570 --> 00:40:56,510
and so on and so forth you know who they

972
00:41:01,090 --> 00:40:58,580
would see as wackos who these strange

973
00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:01,100
believes Scientologists and Rosicrucians

974
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:03,110
and so on or is it going to be people

975
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:06,400
who are more sober minded and rational

976
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:09,110
quote-unquote so I think that there was

977
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:12,170
a tremendous interest mutual interest in

978
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:13,760
both these groups that you would think

979
00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:16,850
of being as opposite in fighting the

980
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:19,160
same enemy but if you if you dig below

981
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:20,810
the surface you start to realize that

982
00:41:26,410 --> 00:41:24,650
both of them were you know there were

983
00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:26,420
like two hands of the same puppet you

984
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:28,310
know they they were both answering to

985
00:41:36,190 --> 00:41:33,890
the same offices same officers in in the

986
00:41:37,330 --> 00:41:36,200
military and intelligence communities I

987
00:41:39,070 --> 00:41:37,340
mean that's that's pretty well

988
00:41:41,410 --> 00:41:39,080
documented this is not you know

989
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:41,420
conjecture or supposition on my part

990
00:41:47,070 --> 00:41:45,170
that you know again we see all the

991
00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:47,080
people involved inside cop and and

992
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:49,280
similar groups and similar movements

993
00:41:54,430 --> 00:41:51,610
having all kinds of military and

994
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:54,440
intelligence connections and we also see

995
00:42:00,130 --> 00:41:56,480
the same thing with near the Christian

996
00:42:01,750 --> 00:42:00,140
conservative there's a well known CIA

997
00:42:03,010 --> 00:42:01,760
agent whose name escapes me at the

998
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:03,020
moment but he had said that he had

999
00:42:08,530 --> 00:42:06,560
basically created the modern evangelical

1000
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:08,540
movement with these Christian groups on

1001
00:42:12,730 --> 00:42:10,640
college campuses that he was using sort

1002
00:42:14,140 --> 00:42:12,740
of to counteract the influence of like

1003
00:42:16,780 --> 00:42:14,150
the anti-war movement and the hippies

1004
00:42:18,370 --> 00:42:16,790
and so on and you know that again is

1005
00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:18,380
pretty well documented I'm even going

1006
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:20,390
back to the forties it's very well

1007
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:22,970
documented that Billy Graham was very

1008
00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:25,280
close with Allen Dulles had very close

1009
00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:27,190
connections close friendship with him

1010
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:29,990
and that brought in you know people in

1011
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:32,870
the Rockefeller orbit and so on so it

1012
00:42:38,740 --> 00:42:36,410
all kind of grows out of the same pot so

1013
00:42:40,090 --> 00:42:38,750
to speak and again when one of the

1014
00:42:42,730 --> 00:42:40,100
things that I really wanted to explore

1015
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:42,740
in the book is that if you take if you

1016
00:42:49,060 --> 00:42:46,640
had taken the work out of the public

1017
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:49,070
sphere you know off the public kitty so

1018
00:42:53,620 --> 00:42:52,370
to speak and done so under ostensibly

1019
00:42:55,359 --> 00:42:53,630
private group

1020
00:42:57,999 --> 00:42:55,369
have a lot more leeway to do whatever

1021
00:43:00,160 --> 00:42:58,009
you wanted and and you would have very

1022
00:43:02,380 --> 00:43:00,170
little oversight and you would be

1023
00:43:04,690 --> 00:43:02,390
unaccountable to the public about it and

1024
00:43:07,599 --> 00:43:04,700
that's something again that is not I

1025
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:07,609
mean always placing it in this fictional

1026
00:43:13,269 --> 00:43:10,160
context with remote viewing and so on

1027
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:13,279
but we see this all the time I mean this

1028
00:43:22,109 --> 00:43:17,210
has become pandemic you know with the

1029
00:43:24,220 --> 00:43:22,119
use of private corporations running

1030
00:43:27,390 --> 00:43:24,230
military operations

1031
00:43:31,210 --> 00:43:27,400
you know these military contractors

1032
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:31,220
DynCorp Z all these kind of groups I

1033
00:43:38,249 --> 00:43:33,730
want I wanted to explore like how would

1034
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:38,259
how would something as ostensibly

1035
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:40,970
esoteric and fringe as remote viewing

1036
00:43:47,740 --> 00:43:45,440
operate in the same context that private

1037
00:43:49,809 --> 00:43:47,750
military contractors would operate in I

1038
00:43:52,329 --> 00:43:49,819
can't get too worked up about that

1039
00:43:55,509 --> 00:43:52,339
because whenever I look back in history

1040
00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:55,519
I don't find a time when we were more

1041
00:43:59,529 --> 00:43:58,130
free more information you know whether

1042
00:44:03,099 --> 00:43:59,539
we had access to the Freedom of

1043
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:03,109
Information Act or not great but there

1044
00:44:08,529 --> 00:44:06,470
was a level of awareness among the

1045
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:08,539
people among the general population we

1046
00:44:14,410 --> 00:44:12,650
didn't have this web of knowledge that

1047
00:44:16,180 --> 00:44:14,420
we now have that really supports all of

1048
00:44:17,620 --> 00:44:16,190
us that we can stand on and say things

1049
00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:17,630
in a factual way so I think it's kind of

1050
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:19,700
a balancing act yeah they were more open

1051
00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:22,130
in the Freedom of Information Act but

1052
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:23,660
that's because people knew what held a

1053
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:25,970
lot less I see what we are pressed for

1054
00:44:29,499 --> 00:44:27,170
time here but there's a couple of things

1055
00:44:32,499 --> 00:44:29,509
I really want to hit on which I think

1056
00:44:35,529 --> 00:44:32,509
lie beneath a lot of these topics were

1057
00:44:38,650 --> 00:44:35,539
talking about and I want to talk about

1058
00:44:41,319 --> 00:44:38,660
evil I'm actually writing a book on why

1059
00:44:43,450 --> 00:44:41,329
evil matters it's kind of like you know

1060
00:44:46,180 --> 00:44:43,460
the first book I wrote the premise of it

1061
00:44:48,009 --> 00:44:46,190
was if science gets consciousness wrong

1062
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:48,019
then it really can't get anything right

1063
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:50,690
and the premise the second book is if

1064
00:44:56,319 --> 00:44:53,690
you're not willing to look at evil which

1065
00:45:00,849 --> 00:44:56,329
you've looked at a lot and particularly

1066
00:45:03,279 --> 00:45:00,859
the kind of malevolent forces that

1067
00:45:05,799 --> 00:45:03,289
transcend space and time if you will I

1068
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:05,809
use extended consciousness sometimes but

1069
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:06,570
I

1070
00:45:11,690 --> 00:45:08,880
people don't like that term but if

1071
00:45:15,020 --> 00:45:11,700
you're not willing to go there with evil

1072
00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:15,030
then you're really not talking about

1073
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:18,630
anything so what do you think about the

1074
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:21,810
evil question particularly as it relates

1075
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:25,710
to the book and how you kind of get to

1076
00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:28,310
what's really behind all this

1077
00:45:31,070 --> 00:45:30,270
it's interesting you brought this up

1078
00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:31,080
because this is something I've been

1079
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:32,940
thinking quite a bit about and and I

1080
00:45:39,020 --> 00:45:35,610
think that you know the the descent into

1081
00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:39,030
evil into evil thinking it goes in steps

1082
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:41,760
you know it's it's sort of a like an

1083
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:44,730
initiatory process so to speak

1084
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:46,560
nobody said so I don't think people

1085
00:45:51,470 --> 00:45:49,290
necessarily some weirdos who are into

1086
00:45:54,020 --> 00:45:51,480
Satanism or whatever nobody sets out

1087
00:45:56,570 --> 00:45:54,030
thinking I'm going to be evil I think

1088
00:45:59,780 --> 00:45:56,580
that the seduction of evil is that I am

1089
00:46:01,910 --> 00:45:59,790
going to be better than you and I am

1090
00:46:04,340 --> 00:46:01,920
going to solve the problems that you

1091
00:46:06,530 --> 00:46:04,350
cannot solve I'm going to solve the

1092
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:06,540
problems of the world and you know that

1093
00:46:10,820 --> 00:46:09,210
old Stalin phrase if you know if you

1094
00:46:12,740 --> 00:46:10,830
have to crack a few eggs to make this

1095
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:12,750
beautiful omelet so be it you know I

1096
00:46:17,210 --> 00:46:14,370
think that the ends justify the means

1097
00:46:21,050 --> 00:46:17,220
this is kind of the gateway that's the

1098
00:46:24,890 --> 00:46:21,060
doorway to evil to evil acts to evil

1099
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:24,900
intentions but I think that the process

1100
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:28,160
of descending into that kind of thinking

1101
00:46:32,570 --> 00:46:31,200
you know there's a whole another cliche

1102
00:46:33,740 --> 00:46:32,580
the road to hell is paved with good

1103
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:33,750
intentions and that's something that

1104
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:35,370
again that I really wanted to explore I

1105
00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:37,290
want to explore that's you know how were

1106
00:46:42,740 --> 00:46:39,870
people that would descend into what we

1107
00:46:44,210 --> 00:46:42,750
would see is like the ultimate evil how

1108
00:46:45,290 --> 00:46:44,220
would they justify themselves and this

1109
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:45,300
is something I've thought a lot about

1110
00:46:49,610 --> 00:46:47,310
for many years because I think about

1111
00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:49,620
like comic book super villains Lex

1112
00:46:55,940 --> 00:46:52,500
Luthor and Doctor Doom and so on they

1113
00:46:58,310 --> 00:46:55,950
always see themselves you know not only

1114
00:46:59,810 --> 00:46:58,320
as us above the rest of us but they

1115
00:47:02,990 --> 00:46:59,820
always see themselves as the good guy

1116
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:03,000
you know I think the worst villains are

1117
00:47:07,790 --> 00:47:05,850
the ones who see themselves as the good

1118
00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:07,800
guy William B Davis who played the

1119
00:47:11,690 --> 00:47:10,260
smoking man in the x-files it always

1120
00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:11,700
said that he was the hero of the story

1121
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:13,260
that Mulder was you know this

1122
00:47:18,010 --> 00:47:14,790
troublemaker in this villain that that

1123
00:47:20,430 --> 00:47:18,020
he was the one who was rational and and

1124
00:47:23,220 --> 00:47:20,440
considered and and thought out his play

1125
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:23,230
and and did so in a way that you know

1126
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:25,119
that he could justify and I think that

1127
00:47:31,380 --> 00:47:27,520
again that the the worst evil is done by

1128
00:47:34,109 --> 00:47:31,390
those who can justify it somehow it's a

1129
00:47:36,359 --> 00:47:34,119
kind of mirror image mirror imaging that

1130
00:47:39,150 --> 00:47:36,369
we see so often one of the things that I

1131
00:47:41,130 --> 00:47:39,160
find so troubling Islam the way this is

1132
00:47:42,930 --> 00:47:41,140
kind of being presented in the public

1133
00:47:45,809 --> 00:47:42,940
where you know Satanists now then

1134
00:47:47,940 --> 00:47:45,819
they're you know not these weirdos you

1135
00:47:49,980 --> 00:47:47,950
know many of whom have like extremely

1136
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:49,990
unwholesome sexual appetites they're

1137
00:47:55,020 --> 00:47:53,280
their heroes of free speech and and

1138
00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:55,030
constitutional rights I mean that's how

1139
00:47:59,579 --> 00:47:57,760
it's couched now and you know there's

1140
00:48:02,040 --> 00:47:59,589
all these I mean you'll have girls

1141
00:48:03,329 --> 00:48:02,050
magazines you know aimed betweens and

1142
00:48:07,970 --> 00:48:03,339
young girls you know how to summon a

1143
00:48:10,319 --> 00:48:07,980
demon that's like I'm sorry you know I

1144
00:48:11,940 --> 00:48:10,329
think about that I'm laughing at the

1145
00:48:14,099 --> 00:48:11,950
absurdity of this what I'm laughs well

1146
00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:14,109
what is the absurdity of it because I

1147
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:16,030
think you're open to the possibility I

1148
00:48:20,309 --> 00:48:17,530
know from your writing and I think

1149
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:20,319
you're you're also cautious you you tell

1150
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:23,650
a cautionary tale of people who take the

1151
00:48:30,750 --> 00:48:26,770
leap and dabble in occultism and you

1152
00:48:32,370 --> 00:48:30,760
know magic rituals and stuff like that

1153
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:32,380
and you're not doing it from like this

1154
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:34,450
heavy-duty Christian Bible way you're

1155
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:35,650
just saying hey you know my life

1156
00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:36,970
experience tells me that a lot of people

1157
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:39,550
get into stuff that they didn't

1158
00:48:43,620 --> 00:48:41,890
anticipate well all that presupposes

1159
00:48:45,450 --> 00:48:43,630
that there's a certain reality to it and

1160
00:48:50,370 --> 00:48:45,460
because as much as you're talking about

1161
00:48:53,550 --> 00:48:50,380
the you know hip kind of cultural

1162
00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:53,560
tweener kind of pop culture thing the

1163
00:49:00,960 --> 00:48:57,730
part that gives me pause is people who

1164
00:49:03,690 --> 00:49:00,970
are connecting with these extended

1165
00:49:07,020 --> 00:49:03,700
consciousness realms in order to seek

1166
00:49:08,220 --> 00:49:07,030
power and to seek personal gain and we

1167
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:08,230
have that recorded throughout history

1168
00:49:13,230 --> 00:49:10,000
and you've recorded it in your books and

1169
00:49:15,450 --> 00:49:13,240
on your blog so don't we need to address

1170
00:49:17,849 --> 00:49:15,460
or at least throw that on the table to

1171
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:17,859
what extent can you use malevolent

1172
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:20,890
spirit forces to improve your life

1173
00:49:24,780 --> 00:49:22,690
that's the claim being made is there any

1174
00:49:26,579 --> 00:49:24,790
truth to it well this is something that

1175
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:26,589
I've written about quite a bit

1176
00:49:31,690 --> 00:49:27,910
particularly in the past couple years

1177
00:49:34,510 --> 00:49:31,700
and my basic advice is stay

1178
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:34,520
you know what stay away from if you

1179
00:49:38,020 --> 00:49:36,650
think you can summon a demon and control

1180
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:38,030
it you know first of all there are two

1181
00:49:41,950 --> 00:49:39,920
possibilities one is that it's just

1182
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:41,960
absolute fantasy on your part the

1183
00:49:46,690 --> 00:49:44,480
absolute delusion second of all there is

1184
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:46,700
this reality there is a reality to

1185
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:48,650
summoning these energies and forces

1186
00:49:54,670 --> 00:49:52,400
whether it's psychological or power

1187
00:49:57,220 --> 00:49:54,680
physical I got a pin you down there is

1188
00:49:59,200 --> 00:49:57,230
it all psychological or is it pair of

1189
00:50:02,200 --> 00:49:59,210
physical well I believe it's pair of

1190
00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:02,210
physical I do too but you know the point

1191
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:05,420
being is that if you could summon a

1192
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:07,040
creature that's that's powerful enough

1193
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:09,110
to change your life or to curse somebody

1194
00:50:14,740 --> 00:50:12,710
or whatever you think you want what do

1195
00:50:16,510 --> 00:50:14,750
you have to offer them what did what

1196
00:50:18,940 --> 00:50:16,520
could be what could you possibly give to

1197
00:50:23,350 --> 00:50:18,950
them if it's some disembodied spirit

1198
00:50:23,830 --> 00:50:23,360
that is immortal or eternal or what have

1199
00:50:28,660 --> 00:50:23,840
you

1200
00:50:31,690 --> 00:50:28,670
have nothing that that is what's being

1201
00:50:33,970 --> 00:50:31,700
sold in the magic community they're

1202
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:33,980
saying well if you just do this grimoire

1203
00:50:40,750 --> 00:50:37,370
properly with a sharpened sword at this

1204
00:50:43,150 --> 00:50:40,760
angle drawn in this way what a mindfuck

1205
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:43,160
to tell people that that then you will

1206
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:44,960
what and they will say this I forget

1207
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:46,850
this professor's name has been on like

1208
00:50:52,030 --> 00:50:49,130
Greg show and bunch of you know you will

1209
00:50:55,090 --> 00:50:52,040
then command you will the he the demon

1210
00:50:57,700 --> 00:50:55,100
will then be compelled to how are you

1211
00:51:01,510 --> 00:50:57,710
gonna compel that kind of force it's

1212
00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:01,520
just such a it seems like such a shield

1213
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:03,710
deal that people fall for I don't get

1214
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:07,280
how people can be so naive people oh so

1215
00:51:09,790 --> 00:51:08,330
naive because they don't have an

1216
00:51:12,340 --> 00:51:09,800
experience they don't have real life

1217
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:12,350
experience you're talking a lot of

1218
00:51:16,780 --> 00:51:13,970
people a cohort of people who are

1219
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:16,790
incredibly privileged who grew up in an

1220
00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:18,890
era of wealth and privilege absolutely

1221
00:51:24,790 --> 00:51:21,710
unparalleled in human history sheltered

1222
00:51:26,140 --> 00:51:24,800
sheltered existence and also they were

1223
00:51:27,970 --> 00:51:26,150
programmed by the media they were

1224
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:27,980
programmed by a lot of these shows on

1225
00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:29,650
television

1226
00:51:37,210 --> 00:51:34,550
they can do these things they can't you

1227
00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:37,220
know they can't I I've really come to

1228
00:51:41,350 --> 00:51:38,990
the point in my life where I'm just like

1229
00:51:43,390 --> 00:51:41,360
don't don't mess around with any of it

1230
00:51:44,839 --> 00:51:43,400
it's interesting to just study it's

1231
00:51:48,410 --> 00:51:44,849
interesting to sort of watch

1232
00:51:50,059 --> 00:51:48,420
from a distance but I I gotta tell you

1233
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:50,069
I'm really at a point right now and I've

1234
00:51:53,289 --> 00:51:51,690
said this on a number of interviews and

1235
00:51:56,029 --> 00:51:53,299
podcasts over the past several years

1236
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,039
don't don't do it

1237
00:52:00,829 --> 00:51:58,079
can we really say don't do it because

1238
00:52:02,690 --> 00:52:00,839
when we say don't do it it also feels a

1239
00:52:06,289 --> 00:52:02,700
little bit churchy

1240
00:52:09,229 --> 00:52:06,299
mind if god thing like I understand the

1241
00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:09,239
nature the order of the extended

1242
00:52:13,460 --> 00:52:10,950
consciousness realm I understand the

1243
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:13,470
mind of mind of God and therefore don't

1244
00:52:18,229 --> 00:52:16,410
do it you know I mean I don't need to go

1245
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:18,239
that far I mean I would tell them to

1246
00:52:22,579 --> 00:52:20,160
just do a little research I mean read

1247
00:52:26,180 --> 00:52:22,589
Colin Wilson's book the occult and he

1248
00:52:28,789 --> 00:52:26,190
sort of very interestingly details how

1249
00:52:31,579 --> 00:52:28,799
many of these stories of great magicians

1250
00:52:33,140 --> 00:52:31,589
in history and very very badly there's

1251
00:52:34,489 --> 00:52:33,150
another book that I read a number of

1252
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:34,499
years ago that had a tremendous

1253
00:52:38,059 --> 00:52:36,089
influence me and I've talked about also

1254
00:52:40,190 --> 00:52:38,069
in a number of different interviews is a

1255
00:52:43,479 --> 00:52:40,200
book by a gentleman named Cairo who was

1256
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:43,489
one of these sort of pops I called pop

1257
00:52:45,499 --> 00:52:45,119
parapsychologists I guess it's a better

1258
00:52:47,089 --> 00:52:45,509
word

1259
00:52:49,099 --> 00:52:47,099
he's one of these figures that there are

1260
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:49,109
a lot of in the 20s and 30s who you know

1261
00:52:53,660 --> 00:52:51,930
we're very theatrical almost like stage

1262
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:53,670
magicians but incorporated a lot of

1263
00:52:59,509 --> 00:52:55,729
occultism but he wrote a book about

1264
00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:59,519
magicians and sorcerers and so on

1265
00:53:03,019 --> 00:53:01,619
throughout history and it's one of the

1266
00:53:05,329 --> 00:53:03,029
grimmest damn things you've ever read

1267
00:53:08,180 --> 00:53:05,339
because every single story every single

1268
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:08,190
chapter ends badly you name it

1269
00:53:13,099 --> 00:53:10,529
you name these great figures I mean of

1270
00:53:16,099 --> 00:53:13,109
course we've seen how Crowley ended up

1271
00:53:17,959 --> 00:53:16,109
how Jack Parsons ended up Kenneth Anger

1272
00:53:20,299 --> 00:53:17,969
seems to be hanging in there but I know

1273
00:53:23,289 --> 00:53:20,309
from personal I mean I've spoken to the

1274
00:53:26,509 --> 00:53:23,299
man and I've dealt with his people he's

1275
00:53:29,569 --> 00:53:26,519
he's had some unbelievably hard times

1276
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:29,579
that none of us would we're aspired to

1277
00:53:35,479 --> 00:53:31,890
duplicate so I I think you don't need to

1278
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:35,489
appeal to biblical authority you just

1279
00:53:40,910 --> 00:53:37,529
need to look at how people who pursued

1280
00:53:44,180 --> 00:53:40,920
these courses of action how their story

1281
00:53:46,249 --> 00:53:44,190
ended and I I cannot off the top of my

1282
00:53:47,209 --> 00:53:46,259
head think of a single story that did

1283
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:47,219
not end badly

1284
00:53:51,469 --> 00:53:49,710
outside of people who were involved in

1285
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:51,479
in the in the arts and they were

1286
00:53:56,059 --> 00:53:53,160
basically you know writers and musicians

1287
00:53:57,609 --> 00:53:56,069
and so on and they sort of incorporated

1288
00:54:00,519 --> 00:53:57,619
these occult idea

1289
00:54:03,220 --> 00:54:00,529
into their work but otherwise it just

1290
00:54:06,130 --> 00:54:03,230
ends badly it really does you don't need

1291
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:06,140
to look very far I mean Anton LaVey was

1292
00:54:12,519 --> 00:54:09,380
a miserable husk of a man for the last

1293
00:54:13,839 --> 00:54:12,529
15 20 years of his life yeah I had I

1294
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:13,849
have a friend who lived in San Francisco

1295
00:54:18,759 --> 00:54:15,920
lived two doors down from him on

1296
00:54:21,549 --> 00:54:18,769
California out and he said that you he's

1297
00:54:23,049 --> 00:54:21,559
a guy who's actually you know skeptical

1298
00:54:24,549 --> 00:54:23,059
rational atheist but he said every time

1299
00:54:28,630 --> 00:54:24,559
you went by that house you just kind of

1300
00:54:30,910 --> 00:54:28,640
felt this void this Naurang vacuum and

1301
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:30,920
they eventually tore the house down you

1302
00:54:35,769 --> 00:54:32,720
know it had been painted black it hadn't

1303
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:35,779
been kept up in the yard and and the

1304
00:54:42,339 --> 00:54:38,720
siding and so on was it was in disrepair

1305
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:42,349
I I think that it's just don't do it

1306
00:54:47,589 --> 00:54:44,720
don't mess around with it it's not

1307
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,599
something if you think you can control a

1308
00:54:53,289 --> 00:54:50,240
force that has the power to curse

1309
00:54:54,489 --> 00:54:53,299
somebody what again what do you have to

1310
00:54:57,339 --> 00:54:54,499
offer them you don't have anything to

1311
00:54:59,710 --> 00:54:57,349
offer them and in case of you know like

1312
00:55:01,569 --> 00:54:59,720
say like the curse Trump keep on the

1313
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:01,579
bind Trump people I mean do you really

1314
00:55:06,609 --> 00:55:03,170
think that Trump doesn't have people in

1315
00:55:08,729 --> 00:55:06,619
his employ I think it's more like we

1316
00:55:11,710 --> 00:55:08,739
were saying before and I think really

1317
00:55:13,539 --> 00:55:11,720
discerning this kind of is important

1318
00:55:14,890 --> 00:55:13,549
because we get the message you know what

1319
00:55:16,839 --> 00:55:14,900
do you think about the the curse against

1320
00:55:19,059 --> 00:55:16,849
Trump what do you think about it no

1321
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:19,069
that's not the point the point is why do

1322
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:21,529
you think you can marshal these forces

1323
00:55:25,630 --> 00:55:23,839
for your gain and why are you seeking

1324
00:55:28,180 --> 00:55:25,640
gain anyway why are you getting into

1325
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:28,190
this materialist backdoor spiritual

1326
00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:30,650
materialism thing that you need to gain

1327
00:55:34,930 --> 00:55:33,200
you are going to die there is a moral

1328
00:55:37,690 --> 00:55:34,940
imperative there is right and wrong you

1329
00:55:40,089 --> 00:55:37,700
will judge yourself in terms of how well

1330
00:55:41,979 --> 00:55:40,099
you did and standing up to that moral

1331
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:41,989
imperative how is any of that going to

1332
00:55:47,259 --> 00:55:44,410
help you in the big picture it isn't so

1333
00:55:49,420 --> 00:55:47,269
I've written several posts saying

1334
00:55:51,609 --> 00:55:49,430
exactly that not in as many words but

1335
00:55:53,019 --> 00:55:51,619
you know basically that same message and

1336
00:55:54,910 --> 00:55:53,029
it's something again it's something that

1337
00:55:56,769 --> 00:55:54,920
I've seen it's something that I've read

1338
00:55:58,539 --> 00:55:56,779
about it's something that you can all

1339
00:56:01,900 --> 00:55:58,549
see and read about it just doesn't lead

1340
00:56:03,460 --> 00:56:01,910
to a good place and I just it troubles

1341
00:56:07,329 --> 00:56:03,470
me how it's being marketed it's being

1342
00:56:10,779 --> 00:56:07,339
marketed as cute and rebellious and fun

1343
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:10,789
and so on and so forth and tie in with

1344
00:56:13,839 --> 00:56:11,210
all the

1345
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:13,849
things that are going on you know

1346
00:56:18,220 --> 00:56:15,890
particularly with kids that the

1347
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:18,230
influences that are just assaulting

1348
00:56:23,260 --> 00:56:21,290
children on on a daily basis

1349
00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:23,270
you know it's very troubling to me but

1350
00:56:28,780 --> 00:56:25,730
again evil does not start off as evil

1351
00:56:30,940 --> 00:56:28,790
evil starts off it sells itself as good

1352
00:56:32,740 --> 00:56:30,950
note they're evil you don't understand

1353
00:56:34,930 --> 00:56:32,750
they're you know we're the good guys

1354
00:56:36,579 --> 00:56:34,940
we've just gotten a bad rap because they

1355
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:36,589
write the history they're they're the

1356
00:56:39,970 --> 00:56:38,720
bad guys so on and so forth well you

1357
00:56:41,500 --> 00:56:39,980
know there's another part of this and I

1358
00:56:43,930 --> 00:56:41,510
really want to get on talk about the et

1359
00:56:47,890 --> 00:56:43,940
stuff before you go and see if we can

1360
00:56:49,780 --> 00:56:47,900
help your cat which is sad to think

1361
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:49,790
about but hey we're talking about sad

1362
00:56:54,970 --> 00:56:52,490
stuff anyway and that's are you familiar

1363
00:57:01,420 --> 00:56:54,980
with the whole Sabbatini and frankest

1364
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:01,430
death cult yeah Seamus she was also a

1365
00:57:07,870 --> 00:57:03,890
flawless to it a lot of work on that

1366
00:57:11,140 --> 00:57:07,880
topic because in a way that does help

1367
00:57:14,620 --> 00:57:11,150
explain it in that you know if you take

1368
00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:14,630
this desire that some people have to

1369
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:19,520
seek power by any means and an evil

1370
00:57:27,730 --> 00:57:24,490
somehow pushes their misconfigured

1371
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:27,740
spiritual and energy forces which i

1372
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:29,810
think is kind of maybe closer to what's

1373
00:57:34,060 --> 00:57:32,450
really happening and then they extend

1374
00:57:35,650 --> 00:57:34,070
that to the extended realm and say oh

1375
00:57:37,870 --> 00:57:35,660
wow there's an extended realm that'll

1376
00:57:40,089 --> 00:57:37,880
also push the buttons in me that somehow

1377
00:57:42,910 --> 00:57:40,099
make me feel less miserable and less

1378
00:57:44,020 --> 00:57:42,920
loss and let's just go with that even

1379
00:57:47,620 --> 00:57:44,030
though I'm destroying other people's

1380
00:57:49,870 --> 00:57:47,630
lives well double down with that and get

1381
00:57:51,910 --> 00:57:49,880
some crazy cult that reads the Bible and

1382
00:57:56,260 --> 00:57:51,920
says you know it says right there in the

1383
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:56,270
Bible that this the only way that the

1384
00:58:01,720 --> 00:57:58,880
Messiah will come is when everyone's

1385
00:58:03,579 --> 00:58:01,730
good or when everyone's bad and we know

1386
00:58:06,550 --> 00:58:03,589
we're never going to get to everyone

1387
00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:06,560
being good so let's see if we can get

1388
00:58:11,650 --> 00:58:09,680
everyone bad and this is a theme that

1389
00:58:13,180 --> 00:58:11,660
doesn't just play out with the 17

1390
00:58:14,950 --> 00:58:13,190
frankest I mean we can see it through

1391
00:58:18,310 --> 00:58:14,960
history but it's all part of this

1392
00:58:20,770 --> 00:58:18,320
deception part of this opposite day kind

1393
00:58:24,579 --> 00:58:20,780
of mentality that I can lie I can

1394
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:24,589
deceive I can be I can infiltrate I can

1395
00:58:27,109 --> 00:58:24,960
do

1396
00:58:29,630 --> 00:58:27,119
whatever because I am serving as you

1397
00:58:32,780 --> 00:58:29,640
alluded to before this higher purpose

1398
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:32,790
now and this higher purpose is to bring

1399
00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:36,450
about evil and destruction in order to

1400
00:58:40,670 --> 00:58:38,310
bring about the good so it's just

1401
00:58:43,339 --> 00:58:40,680
another way to tweak the craziness that

1402
00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:43,349
gets into the cultish kind of mentality

1403
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:44,310
I don't know if you want to touch on

1404
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:46,290
that at all but it does seem to pop up a

1405
00:58:52,130 --> 00:58:49,730
lot well again if people read my

1406
00:58:55,849 --> 00:58:52,140
wonderful new thriller he will live up

1407
00:58:58,250 --> 00:58:55,859
in the sky that conversation is directly

1408
00:58:59,720 --> 00:58:58,260
addressed I mean that way of thinking is

1409
00:59:02,030 --> 00:58:59,730
directly addressed there was a

1410
00:59:03,650 --> 00:59:02,040
conversation between two of the

1411
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:03,660
characters two of the main characters

1412
00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:06,810
with those exact idea is that you you

1413
00:59:11,359 --> 00:59:09,089
brought up are being addressed and

1414
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,369
explored and again like I said I wanted

1415
00:59:16,510 --> 00:59:13,200
to be able to take this into a fictional

1416
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:16,520
context and so I could explore them

1417
00:59:22,490 --> 00:59:19,530
without holding back without limiting

1418
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:22,500
myself without censoring myself and

1419
00:59:27,079 --> 00:59:24,660
that's really what the whole book is is

1420
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:27,089
based on that's what the idea of the

1421
00:59:29,780 --> 00:59:28,770
premise of the book is is that I wanted

1422
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:29,790
to take all the things that I've been

1423
00:59:36,589 --> 00:59:31,520
writing off for the past

1424
00:59:41,210 --> 00:59:36,599
gosh 13 years now 14 years and put them

1425
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:41,220
in a context where people who we

1426
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:43,290
speculate upon the existence who we

1427
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:46,530
speculate upon people who we see in

1428
00:59:50,780 --> 00:59:48,210
certain positions and wonder what their

1429
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:50,790
motivations are that we could get inside

1430
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:53,490
their heads at least how I saw it you

1431
00:59:58,640 --> 00:59:55,050
know from my experience and my readings

1432
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:58,650
and so on and you know in that sense the

1433
01:00:03,140 --> 01:00:00,660
book is was successful for me personally

1434
01:00:05,870 --> 01:00:03,150
because I wanted to understand what

1435
01:00:08,030 --> 01:00:05,880
motivates people who would be driven to

1436
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:08,040
such extremes to be driven to such

1437
01:00:14,510 --> 01:00:11,250
extremes of philosophy and action that

1438
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:14,520
would impact us all in very profound in

1439
01:00:21,070 --> 01:00:16,650
terrible ways and I couldn't really do

1440
01:00:23,270 --> 01:00:21,080
that if I was writing in a nonfiction

1441
01:00:27,770 --> 01:00:23,280
setting without sort of sounding like a

1442
01:00:29,930 --> 01:00:27,780
crank or you know some sort of yeah what

1443
01:00:32,810 --> 01:00:29,940
they called tinfoil hat kind of guy you

1444
01:00:34,550 --> 01:00:32,820
know here's another statement from one

1445
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:34,560
of the characters and he will live up in

1446
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:38,250
the sky regarding the UFO phenomenon

1447
01:00:43,850 --> 01:00:41,250
and it is that the UFO phenomenon had

1448
01:00:47,630 --> 01:00:43,860
nothing to do with science or technology

1449
01:00:49,490 --> 01:00:47,640
and everything to do with the occult now

1450
01:00:50,690 --> 01:00:49,500
they're kind of not saying that directly

1451
01:00:53,570 --> 01:00:50,700
they're saying that this is someone else

1452
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:53,580
is saying it but this is this is

1453
01:00:59,570 --> 01:00:56,400
something we have to talk about because

1454
01:01:01,790 --> 01:00:59,580
I do hear this thread in the interviews

1455
01:01:03,470 --> 01:01:01,800
and in reading the book and I'm not

1456
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:03,480
totally sure where you're gone with this

1457
01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:08,480
Chris what are you like UFO et kind of

1458
01:01:16,250 --> 01:01:14,340
not totally on board guy well one of the

1459
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:16,260
things I've said you know I think I've

1460
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:17,760
been clear about is I don't know I'm

1461
01:01:22,490 --> 01:01:20,310
basically agnostic I had during the

1462
01:01:24,380 --> 01:01:22,500
writing in this book actually the

1463
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:24,390
process of the five year process of

1464
01:01:30,190 --> 01:01:26,490
writing this book my wife and I had had

1465
01:01:33,170 --> 01:01:30,200
an extended sighting of Chevron UFO

1466
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:33,180
basically over our neighborhood for at

1467
01:01:37,250 --> 01:01:35,850
least 20 minutes taking pictures of it

1468
01:01:38,570 --> 01:01:37,260
with our you know camera phones and

1469
01:01:39,950 --> 01:01:38,580
stuff and it was it you know the

1470
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:39,960
pictures aren't great but you know you

1471
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:41,730
can cite you can see the shape of this

1472
01:01:44,780 --> 01:01:43,170
thing you can see that it's a chevron

1473
01:01:47,150 --> 01:01:44,790
with these you know it's you've seen

1474
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:47,160
this design before in other settings

1475
01:01:52,990 --> 01:01:49,290
where it's a chevron shape with these

1476
01:01:56,060 --> 01:01:53,000
big illuminated domes on the underside

1477
01:01:58,610 --> 01:01:56,070
so I had seen this thing when I been

1478
01:02:00,110 --> 01:01:58,620
taking my dog out but I'd also seen let

1479
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:00,120
me tell you exactly when I saw this

1480
01:02:04,250 --> 01:02:01,650
thing I just watched this movie called

1481
01:02:05,930 --> 01:02:04,260
the curse of the man who sees UFOs on

1482
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:05,940
Netflix and it's about this guy this

1483
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:08,970
experimental music experiment musician I

1484
01:02:15,230 --> 01:02:12,450
think he lives down you know Modesto in

1485
01:02:18,050 --> 01:02:15,240
that kind of area and he you know he is

1486
01:02:20,930 --> 01:02:18,060
photographed and filmed thousands of

1487
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:20,940
UFOs so I just watched this movie and I

1488
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:22,050
was just kind of thinking about like

1489
01:02:27,740 --> 01:02:24,530
what is it about that area that would

1490
01:02:29,300 --> 01:02:27,750
inspire these or you know is there some

1491
01:02:32,450 --> 01:02:29,310
sort of military base around I mean what

1492
01:02:33,860 --> 01:02:32,460
would be some sort of special earth

1493
01:02:36,650 --> 01:02:33,870
energies that these things would be

1494
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:36,660
drawn to I couldn't really tell but I go

1495
01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:39,450
outside and you know my dogs doing a

1496
01:02:43,430 --> 01:02:41,510
business and I look up in the sky and

1497
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:43,440
there's this thing that looks like a

1498
01:02:49,370 --> 01:02:45,330
plane coming out of the clouds and then

1499
01:02:52,039 --> 01:02:49,380
stops in midair and I'm like planes

1500
01:02:53,359 --> 01:02:52,049
don't stop in like

1501
01:02:56,049 --> 01:02:53,369
and then I got a good look at the thing

1502
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:56,059
I realized that it was a Chevron UFO and

1503
01:03:00,949 --> 01:02:58,319
you know like I said my wife had taken

1504
01:03:03,140 --> 01:03:00,959
some pictures of it and so on but I'll

1505
01:03:05,779 --> 01:03:03,150
be frank with you I mean I didn't get

1506
01:03:09,140 --> 01:03:05,789
this I didn't know what it was I mean

1507
01:03:12,739 --> 01:03:09,150
I'm about an hour by air from a major

1508
01:03:14,059 --> 01:03:12,749
Air Force Base McGuire Air Force Base so

1509
01:03:15,949 --> 01:03:14,069
it could have been some sort of

1510
01:03:19,130 --> 01:03:15,959
experimental aircraft what they've

1511
01:03:20,269 --> 01:03:19,140
gotten and I mean if you tie right if

1512
01:03:21,949 --> 01:03:20,279
you talk to all the leading UFO

1513
01:03:24,349 --> 01:03:21,959
researchers you've dr. Richard Dolan

1514
01:03:26,929 --> 01:03:24,359
like I have in Grant Cameron that I had

1515
01:03:28,939 --> 01:03:26,939
you know the best most reliable

1516
01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:28,949
information we have suggests that this

1517
01:03:32,569 --> 01:03:30,569
story we've been hearing for so many

1518
01:03:35,929 --> 01:03:32,579
years that we have all this reverse

1519
01:03:38,329 --> 01:03:35,939
engineered alien tech is real and that

1520
01:03:40,910 --> 01:03:38,339
our science and our technology a lot of

1521
01:03:43,099 --> 01:03:40,920
it has connections to that and then you

1522
01:03:44,269 --> 01:03:43,109
know you reference Diana balls Basilica

1523
01:03:46,449 --> 01:03:44,279
in the blog I don't know if you ever

1524
01:03:49,699 --> 01:03:46,459
read the book but I had around the show

1525
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:49,709
and you know she tells an account in her

1526
01:03:56,989 --> 01:03:52,410
book American cosmic about being invited

1527
01:04:00,469 --> 01:03:56,999
out to the desert of Nevada finding

1528
01:04:03,229 --> 01:04:00,479
space junk alien space junk with the

1529
01:04:05,329 --> 01:04:03,239
Tyler Durden kind of character who stays

1530
01:04:07,519 --> 01:04:05,339
at the Four Seasons Hotel and flies

1531
01:04:11,410 --> 01:04:07,529
private jets because he takes the stuff

1532
01:04:15,620 --> 01:04:11,420
and reverse engineers it into bio

1533
01:04:18,109 --> 01:04:15,630
technology that we don't have and this

1534
01:04:19,729 --> 01:04:18,119
is just not independently we might not

1535
01:04:22,519 --> 01:04:19,739
buy that story but it's just confirmed

1536
01:04:24,859 --> 01:04:22,529
over and over again so I I don't know

1537
01:04:27,589 --> 01:04:24,869
why there's the pullback and the

1538
01:04:29,630 --> 01:04:27,599
hesitancy about the science and

1539
01:04:34,009 --> 01:04:29,640
technology of ET it just seems to be

1540
01:04:37,939 --> 01:04:34,019
patently the obvious to me well again I

1541
01:04:41,209 --> 01:04:37,949
am I read and I bred bridgett Downes

1542
01:04:42,709 --> 01:04:41,219
where Grant Cameron uh all these books

1543
01:04:44,419 --> 01:04:42,719
I've read all the books you know

1544
01:04:50,359 --> 01:04:44,429
people's people extend in Freedman who

1545
01:04:53,179 --> 01:04:50,369
are clearly proponents of the the et and

1546
01:04:54,769 --> 01:04:53,189
the tech idea and you know the character

1547
01:04:57,019 --> 01:04:54,779
that you were lewd to that that makes

1548
01:04:58,759 --> 01:04:57,029
that statement is basically someone who

1549
01:05:03,229 --> 01:04:58,769
was in a cultist so he would have that

1550
01:05:04,829 --> 01:05:03,239
kind of bias I think I wanted to which

1551
01:05:07,709 --> 01:05:04,839
the character who made

1552
01:05:10,979 --> 01:05:07,719
statement that you quoted is somebody

1553
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:10,989
who write from the book from he will

1554
01:05:15,209 --> 01:05:12,910
live up in the sky but but the whole

1555
01:05:17,910 --> 01:05:15,219
book revolves around kind of the

1556
01:05:20,670 --> 01:05:17,920
abduction fakery you know somebody which

1557
01:05:22,799 --> 01:05:20,680
was kind of the one stretch for me in

1558
01:05:25,829 --> 01:05:22,809
the book was that this woman got rich

1559
01:05:27,450 --> 01:05:25,839
from writing a book on abduction faker I

1560
01:05:29,309 --> 01:05:27,460
don't see him getting rich on that but

1561
01:05:33,959 --> 01:05:29,319
anyways I mean that's one of the themes

1562
01:05:37,079 --> 01:05:33,969
I was back in the 80s there were a lot

1563
01:05:38,370 --> 01:05:37,089
of bestsellers intruders communion back

1564
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:38,380
in the 80s and you remember those days

1565
01:05:46,289 --> 01:05:41,440
you're old like me yeah but communion I

1566
01:05:48,269 --> 01:05:46,299
mean I don't know that's fake I'm not I

1567
01:05:49,979 --> 01:05:48,279
don't know I'm again I'm agnostic about

1568
01:05:51,690 --> 01:05:49,989
it but you know what I wanted to do is

1569
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:51,700
present a number of different points of

1570
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:53,170
view present a number of different

1571
01:05:59,219 --> 01:05:56,799
angles new points I mean how do we

1572
01:06:01,499 --> 01:05:59,229
perceive this phenomenon I mean there

1573
01:06:03,690 --> 01:06:01,509
are people within the characters within

1574
01:06:07,109 --> 01:06:03,700
the book who accept the whole like et

1575
01:06:09,569 --> 01:06:07,119
and reverse engineering idea or face

1576
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:09,579
value I know one of the things that had

1577
01:06:13,229 --> 01:06:11,440
really inspired this book is that my

1578
01:06:14,969 --> 01:06:13,239
wife and my daughter and I were driving

1579
01:06:15,989 --> 01:06:14,979
up to New Hampshire and this is one of

1580
01:06:19,170 --> 01:06:15,999
the reasons why I set the book of New

1581
01:06:21,059 --> 01:06:19,180
Hampshire is that we had seen a plane

1582
01:06:23,180 --> 01:06:21,069
taking off from Manchester Airport and

1583
01:06:26,459 --> 01:06:23,190
then shortly after there were these two

1584
01:06:28,259 --> 01:06:26,469
giant orange orbs that were kind of like

1585
01:06:29,729 --> 01:06:28,269
harrying it they're kind of bird dog you

1586
01:06:31,650 --> 01:06:29,739
know I always thought they were trying

1587
01:06:33,329 --> 01:06:31,660
to make this thing crash and we were

1588
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,339
close enough and this thing was maybe a

1589
01:06:36,569 --> 01:06:35,200
few hundred feet up in the air and we

1590
01:06:38,789 --> 01:06:36,579
were close enough to get a good look at

1591
01:06:40,739 --> 01:06:38,799
all this going on the plane and these

1592
01:06:42,029 --> 01:06:40,749
orbs and I was like because all those

1593
01:06:43,950 --> 01:06:42,039
orbs are under intelligent control

1594
01:06:47,309 --> 01:06:43,960
though those things and not just you

1595
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:47,319
know plasma balls earth lights of

1596
01:06:51,630 --> 01:06:50,170
something they're clearly operating

1597
01:06:55,049 --> 01:06:51,640
under some kind of intelligent control

1598
01:06:57,180 --> 01:06:55,059
and secondly I can't imagine for the

1599
01:06:59,999 --> 01:06:57,190
life of me that those things are metal

1600
01:07:03,809 --> 01:07:00,009
machines and they were translucent they

1601
01:07:06,779 --> 01:07:03,819
were a lot of luminous they looked kind

1602
01:07:08,910 --> 01:07:06,789
of they looked a little sickly I guess I

1603
01:07:10,319 --> 01:07:08,920
would say and you know that experience

1604
01:07:12,390 --> 01:07:10,329
that my wife and I that I kind of

1605
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:12,400
written into the book of seeing the UFO

1606
01:07:15,870 --> 01:07:14,410
from our porch I was looking at that

1607
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:15,880
object and I was like okay there it is

1608
01:07:19,620 --> 01:07:17,210
how is that thing

1609
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:19,630
the air it doesn't look in any way

1610
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:22,250
aerodynamic for me those those big if

1611
01:07:26,650 --> 01:07:24,170
those things a lamps if those things is

1612
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:26,660
some sort of electrical lamp they would

1613
01:07:30,010 --> 01:07:28,130
be so heavy that the thing would just

1614
01:07:31,780 --> 01:07:30,020
fall right out of the sky so I have no

1615
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:31,790
idea what I'm looking at and the thing

1616
01:07:36,220 --> 01:07:33,770
was right I mean it was really bright

1617
01:07:38,799 --> 01:07:36,230
and we got a good long look at it this

1618
01:07:40,569 --> 01:07:38,809
wasn't some sort of fleeting thing that

1619
01:07:43,180 --> 01:07:40,579
just swept through the corner of our

1620
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:43,190
vision we were watching this thing I was

1621
01:07:47,770 --> 01:07:45,170
sitting there texting with Gordon white

1622
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:47,780
like on okay now it's doing this doing

1623
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:49,250
this I mean it went on for quite some

1624
01:07:53,530 --> 01:07:51,170
time and I just looked at the thing and

1625
01:07:56,589 --> 01:07:53,540
I go how is that thing aerodynamic I

1626
01:07:58,720 --> 01:07:56,599
just could not for the life of me any

1627
01:08:00,640 --> 01:07:58,730
kind of propulsion system that we know

1628
01:08:02,339 --> 01:08:00,650
about there's just no way that that that

1629
01:08:04,690 --> 01:08:02,349
thing is flying under some sort of

1630
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:04,700
combustion engine you know maybe it's

1631
01:08:08,980 --> 01:08:06,890
some sort of plasma technology who knows

1632
01:08:10,450 --> 01:08:08,990
and maybe those lights are actually the

1633
01:08:13,359 --> 01:08:10,460
propulsion where those lights and not

1634
01:08:16,510 --> 01:08:13,369
just you know lights they're actually

1635
01:08:18,370 --> 01:08:16,520
those are the engines of the craft but I

1636
01:08:20,349 --> 01:08:18,380
couldn't see how anybody could fit in

1637
01:08:22,660 --> 01:08:20,359
the craft I mean was it a drone I don't

1638
01:08:25,030 --> 01:08:22,670
know it was really I got to tell you

1639
01:08:27,070 --> 01:08:25,040
having that long a look at that strange

1640
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:27,080
and object was was extraordinary

1641
01:08:33,189 --> 01:08:30,770
unsettling for me it really was well the

1642
01:08:37,300 --> 01:08:33,199
book is really great you need to check

1643
01:08:40,180 --> 01:08:37,310
it out I enjoyed it and I don't rien

1644
01:08:42,729 --> 01:08:40,190
faction know they have non non fiction

1645
01:08:47,890 --> 01:08:42,739
fiction he would have up in the sky and

1646
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:47,900
of course he is still totally owning it

1647
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:49,489
rocking it whatever you want up this

1648
01:08:52,660 --> 01:08:51,170
little dated terms I don't know what my

1649
01:08:55,209 --> 01:08:52,670
kids say I'll have to ask him what they

1650
01:08:57,700 --> 01:08:55,219
say but the secret sunblock spot is a

1651
01:09:00,189 --> 01:08:57,710
great place to go Chris and a little bit

1652
01:09:02,110 --> 01:09:00,199
of time we have left tell folks what's

1653
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:02,120
new and coming up for you in the near

1654
01:09:10,749 --> 01:09:08,210
future and I have I have a title now

1655
01:09:12,070 --> 01:09:10,759
which was a huge sort of stumbling block

1656
01:09:14,470 --> 01:09:12,080
to me I couldn't really figure out a

1657
01:09:15,939 --> 01:09:14,480
good title for it and I'm the kind of

1658
01:09:17,559 --> 01:09:15,949
writer where I need a title you know it

1659
01:09:19,570 --> 01:09:17,569
always starts with the title and that

1660
01:09:23,860 --> 01:09:19,580
drives the rest of this the feeling of

1661
01:09:26,169 --> 01:09:23,870
the book but I do have a book in the in

1662
01:09:28,030 --> 01:09:26,179
the making and actually I'll just

1663
01:09:30,220 --> 01:09:28,040
confess right now that this book was

1664
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:30,230
going to be a much larger book and I was

1665
01:09:33,610 --> 01:09:31,130
going to start in this

1666
01:09:34,990 --> 01:09:33,620
7yz take place in the 90s and then shift

1667
01:09:38,590 --> 01:09:35,000
to the present day and then I just

1668
01:09:40,570 --> 01:09:38,600
realized that was way more weight biting

1669
01:09:42,099 --> 01:09:40,580
off way more than I could chew and I

1670
01:09:43,930 --> 01:09:42,109
think would exhaust the patients you

1671
01:09:45,849 --> 01:09:43,940
know I don't think people would accept a

1672
01:09:49,390 --> 01:09:45,859
thousand page novel it's your first

1673
01:09:51,729 --> 01:09:49,400
novel so I had to trim it down so a lot

1674
01:09:52,809 --> 01:09:51,739
of the second the sequel has already

1675
01:09:55,629 --> 01:09:52,819
been written and I'm really excited

1676
01:09:58,030 --> 01:09:55,639
about it and I've been doing a lot of

1677
01:10:01,450 --> 01:09:58,040
blogging and I'm actually have a number

1678
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:01,460
of non-fiction works that have been on

1679
01:10:05,530 --> 01:10:03,650
the backburner for a number of years

1680
01:10:08,649 --> 01:10:05,540
that I really want to get out there and

1681
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:08,659
maybe do some video presentations on so

1682
01:10:13,660 --> 01:10:10,730
I do have a lot of irons in the fire

1683
01:10:15,820 --> 01:10:13,670
it's just my life has been very

1684
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:15,830
challenging the past few years and it's

1685
01:10:20,979 --> 01:10:17,210
been very difficult to get things

1686
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:20,989
completed but now that I've sort of you

1687
01:10:26,470 --> 01:10:24,050
know broken that impasse I I think that

1688
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:26,480
I'm ready to get a lot more material out

1689
01:10:29,709 --> 01:10:28,489
there which I'm very excited about and

1690
01:10:32,350 --> 01:10:29,719
you know people have been asking about

1691
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:32,360
for a number of years well we're super

1692
01:10:36,669 --> 01:10:34,010
excited to hear that Chris and it's

1693
01:10:39,189 --> 01:10:36,679
always great to connect with you and

1694
01:10:41,919 --> 01:10:39,199
your work is so fantastically

1695
01:10:44,169 --> 01:10:41,929
influential to so many people so thanks

1696
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:44,179
for joining me and pleasure

1697
01:10:48,669 --> 01:10:46,370
take care great pleasure thank you so

1698
01:10:51,189 --> 01:10:48,679
much Alex thank you to you and thank you

1699
01:10:53,890 --> 01:10:51,199
to all your audience as well great man

1700
01:10:57,910 --> 01:10:53,900
you take care I've been spending a lot

1701
01:10:59,290 --> 01:10:57,920
of time outside exploring nature yeah

1702
01:11:00,640 --> 01:10:59,300
spending a lot of time with my dog

1703
01:11:03,010 --> 01:11:00,650
outside she's sort of like an antenna

1704
01:11:05,830 --> 01:11:03,020
she picks up all these carrots and and

1705
01:11:08,050 --> 01:11:05,840
you know I've gotten a lot of things out

1706
01:11:09,939 --> 01:11:08,060
of my head that I think we're clouding

1707
01:11:11,709 --> 01:11:09,949
my judgment and clouding my thinking and

1708
01:11:13,540 --> 01:11:11,719
you know that's one of the reasons why

1709
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:13,550
I'm just like telling people like yeah

1710
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:16,730
stay away from I mean I I'm going even

1711
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:18,080
so far as to tell people to stay away

1712
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:20,719
from Tarot and astrology and not from

1713
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:24,320
like some sort of Babel bible-bashing

1714
01:11:31,860 --> 01:11:28,960
kind of viewpoint but just like you know

1715
01:11:35,740 --> 01:11:31,870
if you think these things have power if

1716
01:11:38,979 --> 01:11:35,750
you're not willing to devote your life

1717
01:11:41,590 --> 01:11:38,989
to them don't play around with them why

1718
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:41,600
would you devote your life to them why

1719
01:11:44,830 --> 01:11:43,730
do you think why do you think that's the

1720
01:11:48,190 --> 01:11:44,840
answer to

1721
01:11:50,500 --> 01:11:48,200
had more that [\h__\h] I think it just boils

1722
01:11:50,860 --> 01:11:50,510
down to narcissism and II though you

1723
01:11:53,530 --> 01:11:50,870
know

1724
01:11:56,230 --> 01:11:53,540
I deserve more I deserve more than I'm

1725
01:11:58,420 --> 01:11:56,240
getting when you get to the higher

1726
01:12:00,400 --> 01:11:58,430
purpose and freely ascending all that

1727
01:12:03,900 --> 01:12:00,410
other stuff just looks silly I think you

1728
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:03,910
know them demon why what are you doing

1729
01:12:08,710 --> 01:12:06,650
I've never really understood the appeal

1730
01:12:10,180 --> 01:12:08,720
that stuff my entire life I've always

1731
01:12:13,420 --> 01:12:10,190
been I spent a lot of time in the ocean

1732
01:12:16,570 --> 01:12:13,430
as a kid so my whole thinking was was

1733
01:12:18,580 --> 01:12:16,580
very much inspired by that like the

1734
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:18,590
ocean is a power that you cannot control

1735
01:12:22,900 --> 01:12:21,050
and it's just absolutely insane to think

1736
01:12:24,730 --> 01:12:22,910
that you can so what you need to do is

1737
01:12:27,700 --> 01:12:24,740
kind of act in concert with it but

1738
01:12:30,460 --> 01:12:27,710
always acknowledge that it holds all the

1739
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:30,470
cards I'm saying and the ocean has

1740
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:32,890
always been kind of my metaphor for um

1741
01:12:36,820 --> 01:12:34,850
for everything really

1742
01:12:39,670 --> 01:12:36,830
you know I mean everything that we you

1743
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:39,680
know in the spiritual world that we deal

1744
01:12:42,340 --> 01:12:41,090
with that you know you're dealing with

1745
01:12:44,770 --> 01:12:42,350
powers that are much greater than

1746
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:44,780
yourself and it's it's really delusional

1747
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:46,490
to think that you have anything to

1748
01:12:50,980 --> 01:12:48,850
bargain for unless you know all these

1749
01:12:54,070 --> 01:12:50,990
sickos who start getting into human

1750
01:12:55,510 --> 01:12:54,080
sacrifice and so on but you know unless

1751
01:12:57,100 --> 01:12:55,520
you're sacrificing yourself it's not

1752
01:12:59,050 --> 01:12:57,110
really a sacrifice right because

1753
01:13:01,210 --> 01:12:59,060
sacrifice means giving up something that

1754
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:01,220
belongs to you it doesn't mean going out

1755
01:13:05,650 --> 01:13:03,410
and kidnapping some poor Guatemalan kid

1756
01:13:10,510 --> 01:13:05,660
off the street and cutting them up on

1757
01:13:12,430 --> 01:13:10,520
some spear cooking altar right we have

1758
01:13:15,390 --> 01:13:12,440
nothing to bargain with except for

1759
01:13:21,310 --> 01:13:18,760
okay permission your my permission you

1760
01:13:23,980 --> 01:13:21,320
know anything that you can use please do

1761
01:13:27,190 --> 01:13:23,990
okay take care my friend thank you very

1762
01:13:29,410 --> 01:13:27,200
much thanks again to Chris Knowles for

1763
01:13:31,780 --> 01:13:29,420
joining me today on skeptic oh the one

1764
01:13:36,070 --> 01:13:31,790
question i tee up from this interview

1765
01:13:39,610 --> 01:13:36,080
has to do with good people who do evil

1766
01:13:43,090 --> 01:13:39,620
things how are we to understand our

1767
01:13:45,570 --> 01:13:43,100
super patriot elites who are for our

1768
01:13:50,860 --> 01:13:45,580
good and for the good of the country

1769
01:13:51,730 --> 01:13:50,870
doing such evil things love to hear your

1770
01:13:55,630 --> 01:13:51,740
thoughts on that

1771
01:13:57,430 --> 01:13:55,640
I have many so I'd love to get in a good

1772
01:14:00,490 --> 01:13:57,440
dialogue with

1773
01:14:03,070 --> 01:14:00,500
you about that one kind of join me at

1774
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:03,080
the skeptical forum that's as I always

1775
01:14:08,590 --> 01:14:05,530
tell people I try and stay up-to-date on

1776
01:14:10,300 --> 01:14:08,600
other comments that people make but

1777
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:10,310
that's where I always go so if you do

1778
01:14:14,500 --> 01:14:11,810
want to talk to me about any of this

1779
01:14:16,150 --> 01:14:14,510
stuff chat with me The Skeptical forum

1780
01:14:16,689 --> 01:14:16,160
is place to do it you can find it from

1781
01:14:21,310 --> 01:14:16,699
the website

1782
01:14:23,260 --> 01:14:21,320
ske P tik o or you can also find all the

1783
01:14:25,930 --> 01:14:23,270
previous shows that you can download for

1784
01:14:27,820 --> 01:14:25,940
free a number of shows coming up as I

1785
01:14:30,610 --> 01:14:27,830
mentioned in this episode I am working

1786
01:14:32,050 --> 01:14:30,620
on a book project as well so I got that

1787
01:14:34,689 --> 01:14:32,060
and I got a couple other projects I'm

1788
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:34,699
working on stay with me for all of that

1789
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:37,730
until next time take care and bye for